Please read the following NYTimes article. Yes, it's long (stop whining) but I believe that it reopens a pertinent question, revealing a rather unsurprising trend in academia; women scientists are not only scarcer than their male counterparts, but are also paid significantly less and subjected to harsher criticism.
Is this trend present in our school? I'm curious to see the male and female perspective of Stuyvesant students, students who exist in a math and science school. Is Stuyvesant a proponent of change in the face of this trend or is Stuyvesant continuing the perception that science is a subject for men?
While we may be tempted to use actual names (students and teachers), please refrain. Let's have a strong, pointed, but respectable discussion. Don't just engage the article, engage each other. Feel free to include links to other related topics.
Although I don't believe that Stuyvesant is continuing the perception that science is a subject for men, there is a disparity in some of the classes which I have taken or heard about. The boy to girl ratio is around 60/40 in this school (I may be wrong) but this suggests that this is a slightly more boy dominated school whereas Townsend Harris is 30/70 and is majority girls but specializes in humanities. This statistic may be due to social norms mentioned in the NYTimes article where girls are not as encouraged to enter STEM fields but once you get past the admissions statistics, it gets more confusing.
ReplyDeleteIn all my science related classes at Stuyvesant, the number of boys to girls have been incredibly random. In my Modern Physics class, the disparity between boys and girls is incredible. There are three girls in the class compared to sixteen boys. This shows the same scenario as in the article, but compared to my AP chemistry class, the results are different. There are around 18 boys and 12 girls which would make sense given the 60/40 ratio of the school population, and this would suggest that there isn't a disparity. I've also heard from my Freshman year biology teacher that AP biology tends to have more girls than boys but I have not confirmed it. Elective math teams and robotic teams however are almost always boy dominated.
What I can conclude in my perspective is that there is a trend where math and science are men related but more so in math than science. This is due to the 60/40 ratio of people entering Stuyvesant but there are exceptions to this trend which show that Stuyvesant is a work in progress.
I have absolutely encountered what is described in this article at Stuy.
ReplyDelete(My response is too long, so I have to post it in two parts. This is part 1.)
It's not as bad here as in the rest of America, I think, because so many kids are from other countries or have parents from other countries, where math and science are more celebrated. I mean, just look at who the school celebrities are– not the football team, as is the case in many American high schools, but the math team. But there are still, as Aaron mentioned, huge disparities between boys and girls in a lot of STEM related classes and clubs. The math team, especially the crux of the math team that goes to the most advanced competitions, is almost all guys, as are the robotics team, AP physics courses, the most advanced calculus courses, and AP computer science classes, not to mention the physics and math departments themselves (the computer science department has NO female teachers). In addition, while there are plenty of math and science teachers who are less than inspiring, when people complain about them the men generally get labeled as "bad at communicating" or "hard-ass," while the women are called "incompetent."
Personally, I have definitely felt like I was not welcome in certain fields, and I have many female friends with similar experiences. Not only were my STEM classes male-dominated, but the lack of girls was accentuated by the fact that the boys tended to speak up way more, and that often times the teacher (male) would take a liking to a particular, inevitably male student, and focus a lot on his questions and his area of the classroom (which tended to be mostly male, because girls and boys like to group by gender when seats are not assigned). One friend of mine, who was one of three girls in her AP computer science class, emailed the head of the compsci department last year to complain when the speakers for a computer science symposium the school was hosting were announced, and every one was male. Oh, he replied, the department knew and they tried, but none of the women they contacted were available. Perhaps she could help them find female programmers next year? And even in classes whose teachers I liked, where I tried to engage and speak up, it was hard to maintain a positive attitude when all the other girls in class seated around me were complaining about how much they hated the class and how bad they were at physics or math.
On top of that, a lot of my guy friends are really into physics and math, but in a kind of social, boys-clubby way that I have never felt invited me to participate. I had one friend who said he wanted to feel more like "a man," so he began lifting weights and switched from a focus in biology to hard-core physics. Other friends who are members of the math team elite say they made all of their best guy friends in math team, so math team and doing recreational math to them feel like the same thing as bro-bonding, something girls are not really a part of. And in general, when guys want to talk to me about classes they are always willing to approach me on equal footing with regard to subjects like history and English, but when it comes to math or science they are either patronizing and disdainful, or don't have time to chat.
Obviously, my experiences are unique to me, but they fit with the larger trend described in this article, and many of the cultural forces that I have encountered are much more universal. As the article mentions, spatial skills are essential in lab work, yet the toys which help children develop these skills (most notably Lego) are marketed almost exclusively to boys. Movies and TV shows like The Big Band Theory (the favorite show of a huge number of Stuy students I know, male and female), which the article discusses, also generally show scientists as geeky men, while women get to be either likable dunces or unrelatable, somehow "abnormal" scientists, who are still usually portrayed as not as good as the men. And beyond that, not only are the male scientists in such shows, the protagonists to whom the audience is expected to relate asocial, but tend also to speak condescendingly to and be totally uninterested in interacting with everyone else– including, in the context of these programs, all women as a rule.
ReplyDeletePut all of these things together, and it comes as no surprise that boys are not only helped along in scientific pursuits, but taught to expect women to be incompetent and incapable of scientific thinking, especially when they don't have many counterexamples in real life. Women in turn are perceived as more incompetent and incapable of scientific thinking, and because of those same cultural influences many come to view themselves that way; even those that don't are often still discouraged by the hostility and lack of support and role models, real or fictional. The effects of shutting women out of science are devastating, not only for the women who aren't able to pursue a subject they enjoy and are good at, but for society as well, which loses almost half of the brilliant scientists it should have. If only people, especially scientists, can recognize their biases and try to change them, things will get better for everyone. That includes the people and scientists at Stuy.
(That was part 2.)
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ReplyDeleteI'd like to chime in.
ReplyDeleteAaron raises an interesting point: Class populations can differentiate between 60/40 male to female and sometimes even female dominated classes.
But Miranda raises an important point that begs me to remind us of our class's name. Are we hearing women's voices in these classrooms? I'm curious to see if female students are as outspoken as their male counterparts. While Miranda shares her experience, do we see similarities or disparities?
I am also curious (as I do not know many teachers outside of my department), how manty of your STEM teachers are female? I am reminded of a quote from our Missrepresentation documentary: "You can't be what you can't see." Is their a direction correlation between the gender of our STEM educators and the dearth of female STEM students excelling at their field of study?
BTW - I deleted my original comment due to spelling errors. It happens to the best of us an even as an admin, I can't edit my own comments.
Like Miranda, I've encountered this trend at Stuy.
ReplyDeleteAs a female who's interested in math and the natural sciences, I've noticed that the decreasing number of females in my more advanced math/science classes. I had the grand number of four total girls in my robotics class last year (and the teacher stuck all of us into the same group). I've also noticed that females tend to not speak as much as males in these more advanced math/science sciences (and even in the less advanced ones!), even if they know the answers. I think this is a pity because a lot of the females I talk to about this say either (1) they're scared of saying the wrong answer or (2) they don't want to scare off all the guys. The teachers also tend to call on whichever girl raises her hand because girls normally don't raise their hands in these classes. I found this funny because in freshman year, my math teachers always called on me no matter what… until they realized that they also had to call on other people (this has also occurred throughout sophomore, junior, and the beginning of senior year).
Another "funny" thing about the gender disparity in STEM-related classes is that most males don't take females seriously. I've been asked one too many times if I needed help because I "seemed lost." This is totally ironic because not only do I consistently score high test grades in these classes (the teachers announce this unfortunately), but I also put up work on the board every single day, so I would've thought that my peers would've connected my face to my name by now. Unfortunately, there may be a reason why these males don't take females seriously--girls sometimes (frequently) play dumb to seem more "attractive." Yes, even at Stuy. It's a wonder to me why anyone would want to seem unintelligent; it was one of the most mind-boggling things that I've seen at Stuy because Stuy is supposed to be some sort of haven for math and science nerds.
I was talking to my former math teacher (a male… I just realized that all but one of my math teachers at Stuy were males) the other day, when I mentioned that I wanted to major in math in college and that I might want to go into the engineering field. My teacher brought up the gender gap in his higher-leveled math courses in college and in the STEM fields in general. I responded mentioning how there were only eight females in my AP Physics C class and how there were only five females in the other section of the class (I was actually shocked when I walked into class the first day and realized how many girls were in my class). He told me to try not to be intimidated by all the guys and that guys tend to be scared of girls who are more intelligent than them (I'm guessing he brought this up because I told him the exact numbers---but I corrected him on this after telling him that I only counted because one of my male friends in the other class asked me how many girls were in my class).
I overheard the guy sitting next to me in my physics class say that he wasn't sure about majoring in engineering because girls in engineering are seldom attractive. Hmnn… lovely. So not only do guys tend to be scared of girls who are more intelligent than them, but a lot also think that females in the STEM field are unattractive. What kind of person wants to be known as unattractive (or be put into a group designated as the unattractive group)? Also, it brings up the question: is it a girl's physical appearance that makes her unattractive--or is it her intelligence? Perhaps this stigma attached to being a female in the STEM field turns females against pursuing a career in these fields.
First off, I want to mention that for chemistry during my sophomore year, both teachers I had were women. I found them to be great teachers who loved what they taught and because of that, I grew to like chemistry as well.
ReplyDeleteI find Crystal’s question of, "is it a girl's physical appearance that makes her unattractive--or is it her intelligence", very interesting. Often times the media portrays how guys tend to prefer a girl who is hot yet dimwitted, over a girl who is less attractive, yet incredibly smart. Better yet, they portray girls who are incredibly smart as nerds. Even in the article, it was written “What remotely normal young woman would want to imagine herself as dowdy, socially clueless Amy rather than as stylish, bouncy, math-and-science-illiterate Penny?”
Moreover, in a show I'm currently watching called Teen Wolf, one of the characters, Lydia, is the typical popular girl who is more concerned with her looks and social status. Yet despite how she looks/acts, she is actually incredibly smart in mathematics and science but she feels the need to hide that part of her. It is as if she is ashamed of being “smart” because somehow it will make her less attractive. In addition, Lydia’s own friends become extremely shocked when they find out she is actually good in chemistry.
Personally, I find it more a matter of opportunity cost (heh economic terms). People think that if a girl is academically intelligent, then that means she has no time to focus on her looks because she is too busy studying. I think it depends completely on the person. Why does a girl have to pick between being smart, and focusing on her appearance? Why can’t she have both? If a girl manages her time well, then who is to say she cannot be both the fashionista and math nerd?
In the current society, it is sad to admit that teenage women often take a step back from seeming educationally active in schools, not only Stuyvesant specifically. When I say the word "seeming," I mean that these women could be geniuses, but don't let it on to the males present. Last year, I had class with one of my female friends who excels in math and science (she always got top scores on tests) but in class, she would rarely raise her hand or speak up in class, even for the easiest questions. When I asked her for the reason, she said "There wasn't another girl in the class that raised her hand, so I can't. It would make me stand out and look different." I was appalled, because she was a sweet girl that shouldn't be judged for getting a question right. I doubt that this is rare in school, but Stuyvesant is a math and science specialized school, so there shouldn't be a reason to hide one's talents in those particular subjects!
ReplyDeleteAlso, I have seen that women teaching science subjects have led to there being different reactions than when there are males teaching. Throughout a majority of my school year, I have had a number of friends share some classes with me. One of my friends used to have the same biology class and, later, physics class as I did. When we had biology class together, a female teacher was teaching the subject. My friend took the class apathetically and laughed at her constantly. Whenever I asked him if he did his homework for the class, he said "No, but its fine. It's a woman teaching after all." Not only that, he skipped classes left and right, never took the tests seriously, and failed the final exam. When he received a near failing grade for the class, he called the teacher "a bitch that chose favorites." A few years later, we shared physics class together. I was prepared for the worst, but the teacher was a male this time. Contrary to before, my friend was never late, always spoke to the teacher with respect, and aced the tests. I told him that I thought he was bad at science, due to the fiasco of biology class, and he replied, "You kidding? This guy is a chill dude, nothing like the biology whore. She was so boring, and she literally knew nothing about biology. But this guy, he's smart. I can tell." Truth be told, the female biology teacher is actually an awesome teacher who actually tried to help my friend once when she saw that he was failing, but he saw her as a joke and refused to listen to a "whore" teacher. Yeah, this complete change in behavior could have been complete coincidence, but I think that the problem stems in the way women are seen when in an educational bubble. Their experience and achievements are disregarded because of which gender they were born as, which is plainly immoral, but these case are unfortunately numerous in this society. Who are we to judge someone based on physical attributes rather than the intellectual ones? This is a question that many should ask themselves, but few sadly ever do.
To me, this topic can be looked at in many different ways. I understand many of my classmates and agree with them in their observation of the imbalance between male and female students in many of our science classes. I find what Aaron said to be quite interesting, I am referring to his observation of the physics and biology classes. This reminds me of how my parents think, and many other Asian parents think, about how boys should be engineers while girls should be doctors. I am not really sure as to why this is. Culturally I have been brought up to think that although I am free to have my own career, my main focus should be my family while my future husband will be the main provider for the family. This is how many guys are raised, and perhaps is the reason why they are pushed towards these really successful fields in the hopes of being the provider of the family.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, speaking for myself, I do not take many science classes. And I hope no one ever thinks it is because I am a woman and find it hard. It is only because my interests fall in the arts. However, sometimes I find myself wondering if this is something I chose to like or has society made me interested in it? Same goes for males. Why are they looked so down upon if they choose be interested in the arts? Why is there such a clear and definite distinction between what a man and a woman should be, even in the 21st century when the lines should not only be blurred but also non-existent?
There are obviously cultural and societal influence on men and women and what they end up choosing for their career. After reading the article, it seems as if employers think women cannot handle these jobs made for “men”. Even though my culture is so much different from that of America’s, the same delusions exist, which is that perhaps women were meant to stay home and not think.
I’ve had similar experience to those that my classmates have mentioned above. I went into freshman year taking physics, not knowing what that science even was. It was no surprise that I struggled in the first few months. My teacher decided to switch my seat so that I now sat in between two guys who were doing really well in the class. Maybe he thought they could help me out… Actually, I felt pretty left out sitting in between them because they mostly talked to each other while I was awkwardly stuck in the middle. We were only all talking to each other when I asked a question about something. I felt like I was being spoken to in a more condescending manner because I was the one who was asking questions and not grasping the concepts as well as they had.
ReplyDeleteIn my sophomore year, I was taking an intro to comp sci class. I guess most of the girls had never coded in their lives and neither had I. The teacher would always make comments about computer games that were mostly played by males and I had no idea what he was ever talking about. I know the teacher probably meant no harm and was just trying to connect with some students. But the problem was he was mostly connecting with male students. It made the class seem less attractive to female students. We were all encouraged to help each other when doing homework and class work. I’ve asked girls and guys in the class if I had a question. More often than not, the girls were unable to help me. I guess after a while I just asked guys because there was a higher chance that they could answer my questions better than the girls could. But I didn’t like the fact that I had to keep asking guys who thought it was all so easy and I just felt I was asking pretty simple questions.
I think Farzana poses an interesting question. Do society’s expectations force males and females to like what they do or is it really our own choice? Is it innate for women to like the arts and humanities? Is it innate for men to like math and science? I’ve often asked myself these questions. Would I still be interested in math and science if the external influences were removed? Or am I really actually not as interested as I think I am, and I’ve somehow convinced myself otherwise because I don’t want to conform to gender stereotypes…
Hi,
ReplyDeleteReading some of the previous posts, I realized I've also seen similar things in my STEM classes - males participating more than females, but I haven't really noticed it up until now. Out of all of my STEM teachers (totaling up to like 12?), 2 are female. So quite interesting. I'm also taking mixed media right now, and I think the girls out number the boys by a few numbers. It's one of the class I've seen with the most female other than women's voices. There's also one thing in Stuy I find interesting. I've only seen girls working for the writing center so far; I've never had a male editor. I actually wanted to apply to be an editor last year, but I missed the application deadline. Seems there's much more girls interested in things like writing than math and science.
I'm also part of the Animation division of the robotics team, and interestingly enough, the entire division so far is male. One of the people that graduated last year went on to study media in U Penn, and told us that his entire program is like 14 girls to 5 guys. I'm wondering if the fact we're under the robotics team has an impact on the way that our entire division is male. The robotics team is also male dominant with like 3 females? The animation division has its interest meeting and everything with Robotics, so I'm thinking there are probably some correlation.
Eileen Pollack attributes the deep disparity between the numbers of women in the science field and those of their male counterparts to a culture that dictates science as unappealing and ostracizes the chances of women to form relationships, a culture in which positive encouragement towards girls hardly exists, success in graduate school involves isolation and competition, and future jobs will inevitably pay less for them than for males.
ReplyDeleteStuyvesant provides many opportunities for all students, males and females, to delve into the sciences. Clubs, such as Science Olympiad and Stuyvesant Robotics, and classes offered, such as Organic Chemistry and the science APs, are living testaments to Stuyvesant’s math-and-science-oriented nature. In the science electives and APs that I attended, there was a balance between boys and girls; in the Intel Research class, girls outnumber the boys. Yet, observing the Science Olympiad interest meetings, boys dominate the scene.
According to these balances and imbalances, I feel that Stuyvesant the school offers plenty of ways to participate in scientific opportunities, yet Stuyvesant the community, particularly the girls, ultimately decides whether this school continues the trend that science is a subject for men. There certainly are girls in Stuyvesant who do not feel constrained by the cultural perceptions cited by Pollack. For instance, there was a couple of Stuyvesant girls who participated in Girls Who Code, an eight-week program enriched with a curriculum to teach programming and lectures and field trips to introduce them to the diverse career opportunities in the computer science sector. On the other hand, there are girls who genuinely do not have an interest in the sciences and prefer the humanities like what Alex mentioned above while there are some who feel hampered by the cultural perceptions of male eminence in math and science.
I've got to hand it to Alvin for raising a certainly valid and strong point. The opportunities are available. Perhaps the onus should be on female students, challenging themselves to be the example. We need our female students to pave the way for future female Stuyvesant students. I'm going to turn this into an assignment. This is Ferencz, signing out from jury duty.
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