In light of our riveting class discussion about a homosexual man's obligations to share his sexuality with his children, I'd like to extend our conversation into our extra credit.
Our protagonist has an arrangement with his wife that while the two are married and loyal to one another (and occasionally physically intimate), he is allowed to quench his sexual desires by sleeping with male partners outside of his marriage. After many years, the two have raised two daughters who are now both in their twenties.
-Should the father tell his daughters about his sexual identity?
-If a parent is repressing some sort of dark desire such as an addiction or some sort of problem (in his/her mind, we're not going to judge), does it behoove the parent to tell the child?
-What should/n't a parent keep a secret from a child?
-I would encourage you to listen to the entire podcast (we only listened to part of Act II) found here. Ask questions of the podcast and ask questions of each other. Be sure to read others' comments and consider your peers' ideas when constructing your own.
I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. THIS IS NOT A FORUM TO DISCUSS WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE HOMOSEXUALITY IS RIGHT OR WRONG. ANY FORM OF HATEFUL SPEECH WILL BE CENSORED. WHILE OUR PROTAGONIST HIDES HIS SEXUALITY, WE ARE NOT HERE TO JUDGE. OUR RESPONSIBILITY LIES IN DISCUSSING THE HUMAN INCLINATION TO REPRESS THE ID.
As we continue to discuss double lives, our conversation will shift away from sexuality and move towards other concepts the id might attempt to repress.
I do think that the father should tell his daughters about his sexual identity. His sexual identity does not only relate to him, but to his daughters as well, who have lived their lives up to this point without knowing that their father was attracted to and had sex with other men. By not telling his daughters of his sexual identity (and of him sleeping with other men), he is lying to them about who he is and giving them a false belief that his relationship with their mother is stable when it is not. It is unfair to allow the daughters of the father to continue with their lives without knowing the truth of their father (a person one should be able to trust) and of their childhood.
ReplyDeleteMy views change, however, when a parent is repressing dark desires and does not tell his/her children. Children are easily influenced and often learn by imitating their parents. Therefore, if a parent started showing dark desires, it may influence the parent's children to develop those desires as they grow older. To avoid a child's development of these dark desires, I think a parent should aim to expose his/her children to positive and valued actions even if the parent is actually hiding dark desires. This is just to benefit the child, to try to make the child take similar positive actions and to lead him on a successful path at a young age. Therefore, I believe that parents should hide their dark desires from their children, but only while the children still look towards their parents to learn how to act in their lives.
I agree with Andy on the idea that the father should tell the daughters. However, if anyone had the right to decide if he would tell the daughters, it would be the wife. She is the one who agreed to the father's desires. If the father were to tell the daughters, it wouldn't be fair to the wife.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, it is wrong of him to constantly lie to his family. If my dad was having this sort of system, I would want to know. I would want to know who I am admiring, and who I go to for advice. If I cannot trust him, than it's as if I am treating my father as a random stranger.
Also, I agree with Andy's position about when a parent is repressing dark desires. The idea that children are easily influenced by their parents is a proven fact, not just speculation. No child should be brought up with "evil" influences (not how the father is gay, I mean the affair aspect). This leads to the conclusion that parents should put on their best "fake" face and be the ideal humans. It doesn't matter if they have these dark desires, they cannot subject their kids to a type of childhood full of evil.
While it sounds as if I have two conflicting ideas, (1) that he should tell the daughters his secret, (2) and that parents should be ideal for their children, the two ideas are actually the same. The reason for idea 1 is that the father messed up idea 2. By him not being an ideal father (having an affair and lying to his children), the father is obligated to tell the daughters, not only for their benefit, but for him to understand his mistake.
FIrst of all, I read responses of Andy and Dror, and I think it address this issue very well. It makes perfect sense why the father has to tell his daughters about his "real" identity. However, I would like to take a different approach on this issue.
ReplyDeleteWhile I thought about this, I focused more on whether the father's homosexuality and his actions affected the children. Although I don't know everything about this story and there might be some aspect that the podcast didn't adress, I don't think the father's desire to fulfill his id had significant negative impact on the children. The father did good job concealing his sexual identity from his daughters, he maintained good family, and his daughters grew well. The story might be different if children somehow found out his father's secret identity, but in this case everything went well and the children and father are in good relationship. Therefore, the father is not obligated to tell his daughters about his sexual identity nor conceal it from his daughters.
Also, regarding the issue of whether a parent should tell his/her children about a darker side of an identity, I don't think a parent is not necessarily obligated to tell children. The reason is similar to my previous point. If his darker side doesn't affect children negatively, then there is no reason for a parent to tell his children about his "darker identity." The "darker identity" is still a part of the parent's personal identity, and there is no reason for parent to reveal all his identity to children.
Although Andy and Dror make good points on how and why the father should have to tell the children, I agree with Sungwoo. I do agree that we do look up to our parents and that they shouldn’t hide important matters relating to the family from us, but I don’t think the topic of the father’s sexuality has an effect on the family.
ReplyDeleteThe father has been gay the majority of his life and has had these urges and desires to sleep with other men. He has told his wife about it and she took it very well. If he has been able to go on with his pleasures without affecting the family, his actions clearly do not pose a threat. He still comes home for the children and he still loves the family. The father does have the option to tell his children about his sexuality, but he certainly is not obligated to.
I don’t think a parent is obligated to tell the child much about their personal life at all. The parents just need to give the child enough information for him to succeed in life and follow his own path. Too much personal thought and experience from the parents may influence the children to stray from their own path.
Here's an article I think will contribute to the debate.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/fashion/the-family-stories-that-bind-us-this-life.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0
I agree with Andy that the father should tell his daughters about his homosexuality. Like in class, I said that age was a key factor in all this. His children are now in their twenties. At this point of life, the kids are probably mature enough to handle this. I also understand that all parents hold some secrets from their children. But this isn't the situation where your little kid asks where babies come from. I don't see this as a big deal that his father has to continue to hide this. Like the father said, there's a bid difference between having gay feelings and being actually gay. The father is still loyal to his wife and kids.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Kevin in that I do not believe he should have to tell his daughters. They are in their twenties, and although I do not know their lives in detail I do not think that their father's sexuality drastically changed their behaviors. The pod cast stated that he acted very normal with very small signs, if any at all, to show the girls that he was homosexual. What is the point in telling them, not knowing how they will react, potentially in negative ways? They are doing fine without knowing this information.
ReplyDeleteHe is their father. My parents dont tell me how many times they went outside today, or when they usually go to the bathroom. Why? ITS NOT MY BUSINESS. Knowing that about them wont help me in any way whatsoever other than planning my time so I can use the bathroom when they aren't. Point being, with my personal case, and with the fathers, the adult has no reason to tell his/her child his/her secrets because there is no particular benefit, and no particular outcome that they wish to achieve.
Awful quote in this scenario, but it is by Benjamin Franklin ... which makes it cool:
“Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead.”
― Benjamin Franklin
I have to agree with Tanvir in this discussion. You have to factor in that his daughters are adults already, and that they are mature enough to accept their father's sexuality. Being in their 20's, the two daughters should have already encountered gay people or have been introduced to the concept of homosexuals. There is nothing wrong with telling your children that you are homosexual. Although it may be disturbing and will take time to get used to it, the situation will be worse if the two daughters had found out by themselves. Parents shouldn't keep secrets from their children. There is no benefit to hiding a dark desire. If it were something like drug addiction, his children could possibly help him cure it. I think that he should have told him when they were children because now, his secret has been hidden longer.
ReplyDeleteI agree the most with Sungwoo. I feel that the father does not have to tell his daughter, as his secret does not affect his parenting. Although secrecy may cause problems later on in the family, if he provides for his family and acts as a good role model, he shouldn't have to reveal his sexual orientation to her. In a way, it may also upset and confuse the daughter, especially if it was revealed at a young age. I don't believe that children know how to understand and deal with something as complicated as sexual orientation. The daughter may believe that the father does not love her mother anymore, and may blame it on herself even. Although the daughter didn't get to know this side of her father, I believe it gave her more security during her time growing into an adult and left her less traumatized. Furthermore, the sexual orientation of a person is only a single part of his/her identity, and the daughter was still able to know her father through other aspects of his life.
ReplyDeleteIf a parent is repressing a dark secret, I don't think it is required to tell his/her child about it UNLESS it negatively impacts the child. Drug or cigarette addiction can have a negative impact on how a child grows up and views the world. If a parent was secretly a drug addict, he/she could harm the child by doing risky actions under the influence of these drugs.
Children should be shrouded from knowing about complicated and confusing things until they are old enough to understand them. A 9-year-old may not be able to understand why their father has an addiction to smoking, but a 15-year-old would know enough to understand why.
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ReplyDeleteI am torn - I cannot decide either way. However, I wanted to add to Tyler's argument by pointing out that there is nothing that will affect the children more then the deterioration of their family. The family serves many purposes, the most important being the site of both the law and love. The father's flaw obviously does not lie in his sexual orientation - it lies in the fact that he must seek satisfaction away from his family, away from his supposed sanctuary. This is the main argument against him telling his children: it will lead, directly, to the deterioration of the family in their eyes. Consequently, this will lead to a lack of respect for both the law and love, and who knows how the children will turn out.
ReplyDeleteBut at the same time, there is a simple counterpoint. The man should be honest. Is his repression not hurting the family more, is his falseness not simply boiling doom under their home? I'm torn, but if I had to chose I would probably chose this option of telling his kids. Though it could have horrible consequences, there is a great image of morality that develops out of the Honest Father, an image that will hopefully mop up its consequent mess.
There is no right or wrong answer in deciding whether or not the father should tell his children about his sexual orientation. It is a difficult situation to be in and I completely understand why the father is so reluctant to tell his kids. However, both his family and sexual preference are huge components of his identity. By separating one from the other, to me, he is repressing his sexuality and a part of who he is as a person. He is avoiding internally and fully coming to terms with his homosexuality. As mentioned by previous commenters, his daughters are at a mature enough age to understand and handle a secret like this. In the podcast, the father says parents not choosing to share secrets with their kids is not dishonest but needed to protect them. He gives the examples of not telling your kids about Santa or about being fired from work. I agree with him to a certain extent. Parents don't tell their children everything especially what could potentially hurt them. I think, however, there is a distinction between secrets pertaining to financial problems and secrets that are so intertwined to one's identity. When a parent continues to hide a portion of their identity from their family, it leads to more pain on both parts. For the parent, it means further repressing themselves and for the family, trying to wrap their heads around this sudden change.
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ReplyDeleteHe says " THere is an acceptance of lying because it was needed to surprise.. and honesty is something that i really value it."
He says that he isn't lying because his children never ask if he is gay. What kind of logic is that? Not telling your own children something that is such a big part of your identity is essentially lying. He's lying about his identity. He also goes on to say that he couldn't tell his kids because they were either too young or too busy trying to figure out their own sexuality that the information would be a "burden." Is telling a loved one a change/part of your identity a "burden?"
He also says that if his children don't ask a question, then they don't want to know and that they accept who he is. The interviewer goes on to point out that how can his children accept who he is if they don't even know what he does, Bergman replies that he is what his children see. Which is crap as well, he is a liar who has double lives! That's not what his children see. But if we look to his argument that his children do know he has sex with men, than why not just acknowledge the truth and be honest. It's like he's afraid or ashamed of it. Why not tell the world that he has sex with men? Why not shatter the world's perception of him? THat's simply being honest? This has nothing to do with being gay. This is being honest with yourself and the world.
I know that he says that he doesn;t want to tell other people or his children because his wife does't want anyone to know. But honestly if we are using his logic of not telling his children then it shouldn't be his wife's opinion that decides whether or not he can tell people. It's a copout.
Something that really bothers me is that he and other people who lives double lifes is just so selfish. He has the "best of both worlds." He has this image of being in a loving family with 2 daughters and a wife but he's gay and has feelings torwards other men. He shouldn't be allowed to live this double life and have this smug attitude about it.
If i were in this position and Bergman was my father I would expect my father to tell me. It's just out of respect for our relationship. And if we look at it from the opposite perspective slightly skewed, if I was gay, my parents would expect me to tell them. Being gay does not define my identity but it is a part of it, that should be revealed in a realtionship. It definietly changes people's opinions of you, but why shouldn't you be able to tell other people all the parts of your identity? Because other people might mock you? That's the price you have to "pay" to do that and be honest with yourself. And that's why I'm annoyed by Bergman. Not becaused he isn't being "punished" but because I feel he isn't being honest to anyone.
I'm trying to get my parents to listen to this and see what they have to say and what they would do if they were placed in this situation.
I could honestly go either way on whether the father should tell his daughters, but I believe that what every happens in a father´s outside life is "personal business" and that it would not be appropriate to tell his daughters. I still think that the guy should have told his wife because a man and a wife are a team and the man is obligated to tell his wife about any problems that he is experiencing in life. The children on the other hand should only know what happens "inside of the house," even if they technically do not live there anymore. I doesn't matter if the parent has a drug problem or whatever, but it is the wife and husband's job to handle the issue and the matter does not need to involve any input and relevance to the children. The parent should only tell the children if the problem directly affects them (I am not going to go into depth on that), but it is only in severe situation.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that a parent should tell the children anything that does not involve them and that the children are not "obligated" to know about secrets. If the secret involves the parents and has no affect on the child, than it is the parents job to take care of it, the kid in a sense is the passenger on a plane and the parents are the pilots. The kid sits pretty in the back and reads his SkyMall magazine, while the parents take care of the work in the Cockpit.
I completely disagree with Annique because I feel that the man was doing what he thought was best for his family. I could never call this poor man "a liar who has double lives!" He was obviously going through a hard time to find out his identity and I believe that he did not feel comfortable coming out of the closet because he did not feel like he was fully out there just yet. After all, he did turn around the car in the woods and drove home. It is not fair to condemn a man as a liar and demand him to come out with his sexuality. When I put my feet into his shoes, I can picture the consequences of coming out of the closet. I would probably lose my relationship with my daughter, wife, and close friends because I would be a "different" Daniel, which is why I can understand why he is fighting the urge to come out.
When I step onto the court, I don't have to think about anything. If I have a problem off the court, I find that after I play, my mind is clearer and I can come up with a better solution. It's like therapy. It relaxes me and allows me to solve problems.
-Michael Jordan
Responding to Daniel's comment
ReplyDeleteit's not about being gay. i feel as if we 've come to the point where its clear that the situation isn't about sexuality, rather about being truthful.
And is this man really a "poor man?" He seems fully comfortable with the way he lives. And no one is condeming this man because of his sexuality, but because of the fact that he isn't honest.
And so far the consequence that he has faced after coming out of the closet to his wife isn't that bad. He still maintains the image to the public that he is a straight man with 2 kids and a wife.
And you're comment of being a "different Daniel" kind of bolsters my point. You shouldn't have two different sides that your kids don't know about. And like Rebecca, I understand that there are secrets that parents keep and lies that they say, but there is a fine line between what you should and shouldn't tell your kids. And something as big as an identity change should be something your kids know.
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DeleteI don't mean to offend by regulating comments but I refuse to allow anonymous posts. Be brave. Use your real name in discussion. Otherwise, I will regulate you.
DeleteI feel that the father should let his daughters know about his sexuality because trust should be the foundation of every family. It would definitely be better for the father to sit down and have a discussion about this with his daughters rather than for the daughters to find out that their father had been keeping a secret from them their whole life. If he lied about one thing, what else could the father have lied about? Bringing such a secret to the grave would be a burden. Since the daughters are already matured, he should just open up about his sexuality to them because they deserve the right to know. A parent may keep a secret from their child with the right circumstances, however once they mature, they have the ability to understand and accept what their parent has to say, including homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteI think the answer to whether or not the father should tell his daughters about his sexuality comes from what you believe is the duty of a parent to their children. Do parents owe it to their children to be completely honest with them at all times? If you think yes, then you probably believe it is the right of the daughters to know about their father’s personal life outside their family. I personally do not believe parents are obligated to tell their kids everything. Being a parent does not mean your life has to strictly revolve around your child. You are still allowed to fulfill your personal desires so long as it doesn’t directly affect your kids negatively. Not knowing your father’s sexuality, like in this case, will not cause a terrible effect on your life. So I agree with the previous comments that say the father has the option to but he is not obligated to tell his children about his own sexuality. Also in the previous comments, some of us mentioned that family is built on the foundation of trust and love. But in some cases such as this, trust and love does not always have a direct relationship. Just because you tell someone less of the truth, does not mean you love them any less. The podcast says that hiding his sexuality does not mean he is being dishonest with his children. He is just protecting them from the truth.
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