I don't think that we should let in people on a minority status alone, because the test is blind to anything but the scores of the student and is based on merit. It would bring the school's status and competition down as now a lot of the kids who come in because of their racial minority wouldn't be up to the standard of kids who came in based on scores alone. Though I agree that intelligence is not based on how much you know, but on how quickly you learn, you need to have a certain degree of knowledge already to keep up with Stuy's course work and there wouldn't be any time to teach the minority kids things that they should have learned in middle school, but were not taught. That, of course, would be the problem why they're not getting high enough scores or even taking the test to get into a specialized high school. The SHSAT is not based on deductive skills as much as a how-much-you've-learned test. That's why it gives an advantage to kids who have parents who teach them extra, a middle school who taught them beyond the curriculum, or prep classes that help you prepare.“I refuse to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city..." Mr. Hewitt says in the article. There aren't only 19 smart African Americans, but there are 19 African Americans who were taught and prepared enough for the test. I'm sure many of them would have never even heard of the SHSAT, while other kids (Like Asians and Caucasians) might have been preparing since they were 10. I think instead of letting the minority in, we should change the test to more of an IQ test, but i'm sure some people might oppose to that as well. There's no easy solution because there will always be an opposing voice.
In my opinion, the SHSAT is as fair as it can possibly be. With such a vast amount of students that desire to belong to at least one of the specialized high schools like Stuyvesant, not all can get in- and that's for a reason. You need competition in order to produce the successful results that everyone expects these days and when the best compete with the best, that's when you get results. As for the issue with race and minority, I don't think it's fair as to simply lower the standards for them to get in. Everybody should be given an equal chance to try to get in, and if they don't, they don't. Think of it as the Olympics. African Americans are usually amazing runners/great athletes and tend to dominate that area of sports. If Asians or white people choose to compete, would they be allowed to cry victim, saying that they are unjustly challenged and should be given a handicap? No they would not. This should be applied to our educational systems. It's not surprising for minorities to want to challenge a system that does not give them the results they want, and their request is normal enough. But then you have the other group, who think that nothing is blatantly unjust in the system. And they are right to think that too, due to how long the system has been in place, and that it hasn't concluded in too many flaws. Overall, it's hard to define the line between black and white without cutting out the large gray area too.
As for Radhika's comment, I mostly agree with her views, except for that part about being able to get in due to prep and helpful parents. I am a firm believer that you only get what you want with hard work, and that life is not fair. I hope this does not make me a horrible, mean person but I can't help but feel a little annoyed whem people think admission is due to prep. It is, but not "prep" as in extra classes; it's the "preparation" that results in admission to the high school of your choice. Preparation is doing everything that you can to know that you will achieve your goal. This can mean extra classes as Radhika meant, but it's also largely about you as a person. Are you hardworking? Do you strive to succeed even when the odds are against you? I believe that that is why so many whites or Asians can get into the specialized high schools- because they place so much value into education and try to make sure that they will do well in life by hard work. You can always go to prep class, but how hard you work there too plays a factor in what help you receive. As for middle schools, you also have to take a test to get into a good middle school remember? I don't necessary remember the name, but I remember there was a test with an enormous amount of questions and little amount of time. If you tried hard then, then you should have gotten into the middle school you wanted. Usually, better middle schools mean better educations, so that problem is a problem within itself. And lastly, helpful parents are an advantage, I have to agree with Radhika there. But even if your parents aren't willing to spend an hour with you at the table doing homework doesn't mean that you are doomed. There are libraries that offer help, schools that have free classes, and plenty of opportunities to try to get extra help. It's not that easy to find, but if you so want to do well on the SHSAT, you'll do what you can to get yourself a spot. I know my thoughts are not that clear or concise as they should be, but I hope my point speaks my ideas. “I refuse to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city..." says Mr. Hewitt. I agree with him- there can be more. But even if they are geniuses, they have to be willing to use their genius to their advantage and apply to their education. Sometimes it is better to be not all that smart but be hardworking, than to be a genius but lazy. Maybe that's the case for the minorities. I can't speak for everyone, just myself. I am not being critical, just trying to make sense of what is happening so far, and taking on my view of it.
But it's difficult to assert that an entire minority group displays a particular characteristic. Isn't that racism? Amy, you've raised some fascinating points. You've discussed the role of parents, access to shsat prep classes, and a desire to work hard. But what if I'm from a neighborhood where shsat classes aren't offered? Or what if I'm from a single-parent household whose parent works two jobs and cannot push me to work my hardest because s/he isn't around?
I don't think that this argument is one that would suggest that some backgrounds have a proclivity for success, but instead, that individuals of a certain background in particularly poor socio-economic neighborhoods/situations should have an opportunity to compete academically at our school. (These are just ideas for discussion).
But what about the test itself? What's on the test? Does the content of the test accurately suggest who belongs in this school and who doesn't?
Also, an article if you're interested ... http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/the-real-problem-with-helicopter-parents-there-arent-enough-of-them/263410/
I feel that African Americans and Hispanics should be allowed to get a lower score than others on the SHSAT exam. For example, if the minimum score to get into our school is 562, African Americans and Hispanics should be allowed to get at least a 532 instead of a 562. Although this may be a little racist, African Americans and Hispanics will be grateful for this chance because there will be more diversity in the most prestigious high schools. However, there is one thing that I disagree with. Noah Morrison said, “The test is fine, but there need to be more opportunities for people to do well on it. There need to be more test-prep programs in underachieving middle schools with high black and Latino populations. It’s a socioeconomic problem.” However, this is being racist, too. It’s not only the blacks and Latinos who are poor. There are also poor Asians and whites who manage to get into the specialized high schools. For example, my friend (I’m not going to mention his name for privacy purposes) had a mother who never cared for him and was never home. He studied on his own on his free time and managed to get into Bronx Science. The blame is not supposed to be put on the test. It’s supposed to be put on the students. If the students try hard and study on their free time with books from the library, they are bound to achieve the best. Preps and special courses are not significantly helpful because in the end, students still have to study on their own. I believe that African Americans and Hispanics can manage to get into specialized high schools if they give up part of their social life and use it for studying for the SHSAT. Trying your best will make you achieve the best.
I agree with Vincent Feng on the matter of how poorer white and Asian student still strive to do good in this test, even without the benefit of test prep or parent who push hard. But I disagree with his statement that African American and Hispanics should get an easier chance to get in this school. I don't say this as a way to be racist and say they don't belong in Specialized High Schools, because they have every right to be, but to do this would not only be fair to other minority groups, it is also an insult to these people. I know many African American and Hispanics who are brilliant and worked hard to get into the schools. But if the NAACP believe that they need an advantage over other students, they are basically saying that these people can't get in otherwise, which is untrue because we do have extremely smart African American and Hispanics. Lastly, although the NAACP claims that there is no racial diversity in all the Specialized High Schools, but I myself have seen this to be untrue in the Bronx High School of Science, which I attended my freshman year.
I have to agree a bit with everyone else that commented here. The test is not used to tell how smart you are, instead it is used to see how much effort you put into a certain goal. A student with an 80 average (with the right amount of effort) might get into Stuyvesant whereas a valedictorian of the school with a 99 average might not. The test offers a fair chance to anyone who tries. It's the whole "u give what you get" situation. Some of the blame can also be put on the parents. It's up to the parents to steer their kids in the right direction. But some parents are so unacknowledged that it annoys me. For example, I was volunteering at the High School Fair about 2-3 weeks ago and i was handing out fliers to some parents. This couple grabs a flier from me and the man goes " So where is Stuyvesant", before i can respond the lady goes " Oh, it's in the Bronx honey, it's too far." In my mind I'm saying WOW and i later told them that Stuyvesant was in Manhattan and that you had to take a test for it. After i told them that they were shocked and just walked away. But this argument still works both ways. That same day at the High School Fair i handed out a flier to this black lady that took the flier and asked me what school it was for. It told her it was for Stuyvesant and she said "My son's not going to get in there , he's black. At that point i did feel bad for some black students. On the other hand. Some of their kids do get the required score for a specialized school but they choose not go.
Niaz i agree and disagree with what you think the role of parents should be. I think that whether or not the parent steers their child in the "right direction" should not and doesn't not always mean that their child will end up going in that direction. At the end of the day it really is up to the student. It depends whether or not the student wants it; it being getting into a specialized highschool, or reaching a goal.
However, i believe that one of the responsibilities of a parent is to teach their children to act outside the sterotype attributed with their gender, race ,or sexuality.
As for the article, I think that there is nothing wrong with the specialized High School exam. Like others have said, this test isn't based upon a student's intelligence, rather how well they can do a certain type of problem in a certain amount of time in a slightly pressured atmosphere. Some say that poor kids cannot do well because they can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars on prepschool. However you don't need to go to prep school to do well. You can go to the library and check out SHSAT prep books, or find a dream program near or in your school area. I agree completely with Bloomberg, no one is looking at the student's background, race, gender, sexuality, neighborhood or school/ school grades.
And honestly, if you can't handle the test, you really won't be able to handle the schoolwork or the amount of pressure there is to do well in a specialized high school.
I disagree with Vincent because he contradicted his point when answering to Noah. He said that being poor doesn't affect the person, if the person wants to do go, he will do good. He also said that the DOE has to lower their standards for races such as African Americans, and Hispanics, but if they wanted to study, they would have studied and looked up free tests online, or even go to the library. The only thing I believe would help is that the parents of the minorities not to be putting them down. Niaz said that the woman said my son isn't going to go, he's black. Even if the child was smart and has the ability to get into Stuyvesant, their parents would let them down. I know my parents were the only people keeping me going. They would tell me that if I have my mind set on something, that I could accomplish anything. When I got my results back and I didn't want to open the envelope because I was scared, my parents told me that wherever I go, I will make the best out of it and they volunteered to throw it out if I was too scared. That was the inspiration. That was what got my into Stuyvesant ( that and studying A LOT).
The conflict between the NAACP and the SHSAT is a conflict between good and good. The SHSAT is an admission test which is designed to test student’s math and English skills. It eliminates bias because everyone who wants to attend the schools has to take it and get the cutoff score rather which is better than basing it off grades because every school is different and it may be easier to do better in one school than another school. The NAACP just wants more Black and Latinos to have a chance to attend Specialized high schools which is understandable because they want Blacks and Latinos to have equal opportunities as other races. I agree with Radhika’s comment “there's no easy solution because there will always be an opposing voice.” Also the problem is very complex. I disagree with Vincent because lowering the test standards for African Americans and Hispanics would not be beneficial for the students because by then they will not be prepared for the specialized high schools. Also, it is unfair to students of other races that they have to work really hard to get into specialized high schools while Black and Latino students can get in with a lower cut off score. My solution to this problem is that the NAACP and DOE need to go to the root of the problem of why African Americans and Latinos are not getting into specialized high schools. One of the main problems is that in many underprivileged districts with a high amount of African Americans and Latinos the students don’t have the proper resources to be well prepared for the SHSAT. For instance, I attended a middle school like this and I noticed is that our curriculum wouldn’t even be close to preparing us for a test like the SHSAT and there were little to none resources for preparing for the admissions test at my school. This is why I took it upon myself to take prep classes and prepare at home. There are some programs to help minorities in underprivileged middle school districts. I even attended one for some time but there were many flaws for instance the classes were very crowded and many students did not take these classes seriously because they did not want to attend Specialized high schools. This brings me to my other point which is that many African American and Latinos aren’t even informed about what specialized high schools are and the benefits of going to these schools. Instead of changing the admissions procedure, the solution should be to have mandatory informational presentations for all students about specialized high schools sometime in the 7th grade so that students will know about these schools. In addition, free test prep should be available to all African Americans and Latinos and it should be changed so that it is more effective and not too challenging or intimidating.
I believe that getting into a specialized high school is not based on how much you know, but on how much you can learn within a certain amount of time. Many Asians and Whites have been studying for the SHSAT since they were in elementary school. This allows them to learn far more than someone that starts studying only a week before the test. This differs from the majority of Blacks and Hispanics. The students in my elementary school, which was predominantly Black and Hispanic (80%), were not made aware of what a good middle school or high school was. This shows that it is the responsibility of the elementary and middle schools to make a child and his/her parents aware of specialized schools. It was not until 7th grade when my parents were made aware of Stuyvesant, and it was not until the summer before the SHSAT when I started studying. Perhaps one of the biggest reasons as to why there are so few Blacks and Hispanics in specialized school is because they are not aware of what a specialized high school is until perhaps a few weeks before the SHSAT, which is not enough time to learn as much as a someone who’s been studying for years. When someone in my neighborhood asks me which high school I attend, I reply Stuyvesant High School. They often think I am talking about Bedford-Stuyvesant Prep, which shows that many minorities are not aware of specialized high schools at all, and racial discrimination is not to blame for the lack of Blacks and Hispanics at elite schools. However, not all Blacks and Hispanics are not aware of specialized high schools. The ones that are aware are often economically disadvantaged, and have to resort to enrolling their kids in free local prep classes. However, many Blacks and Hispanics live in neighborhoods where prep classes are not offered. It is then the parent’s responsibility, as well as the student’s, to seek help in finding ways of transportation to areas where help is offered. As Albus Dumbledore says, “You will find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it.” This is true for nearly every New York City public school. Every school has a guidance counselor whose goal is to help students succeed. Mr. Hewitt is right in saying that he refuses to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city, because that is not the case. While many Blacks and Hispanics are smart, few are encouraged to use that ability to gain entrance to the city’s elite schools. The solution to this problem is not ridiculing the SHSAT and the schools for being racially discriminating, but by allowing Black and Hispanic communities to become aware of specialized high schools early on, and creating tutoring centers in neighborhoods that don’t have them.
I also agree with the quote, “I think that Stuyvesant and these other schools are as fair as fair can be,” Mr. Bloomberg said. “There’s nothing subjective about this. You pass the test, you get the highest score, you get into the school — no matter what your ethnicity, no matter what your economic background is. That’s been the tradition in these schools since they were founded, and it’s going to continue to be.” This is what I was saying earlier. The only thing that I think could be even fairer (if that is even proper grammar) is that maybe the specialized high school would be like the junior high school way of choosing students. This was based on the New York state tests and the Olsat (Otis–Lennon School Ability Test) test. Instead of the New York state tests, maybe the specialized high schools would look at your report cards, or your teacher recommendations, because some people aren't good at taking tests, but are the brightest students I know. I had a friend who was the valedictorian of the best academy of IS 187 (or at least my opinion) and she didn't do good on the test, even though she is super smart and could have done much better on the test if it wasn't a "pressured" test. She is Hispanic, but her race had nothing to do with the way she did on the test. She was just worried. This shows that your race isn't who you are. Its not like what you eat is who your are. You make up the school, the school doesn't make you up.
Although you guys bring up great points, I feel that basing a student's admission solely upon ONE test is preposterous. It's simply absurd to think that one test can encompass all the qualities of a given student. I think that the Specialized High Schools should take on more of a college-admissions approach, which was mentioned in the article as the method by which other high-achieving schools select their student body. For example, when applying to an elite four year college, one does not simply provide the school with SAT grades. Instead, one supplements their application with notes on their extracurriculars, their regular pastimes and hobbies, and their dreams and goals for the future. Although I do not suggest we implement this approach 100%, I do feel that we should look at other things besides the SHSAT. Taking students from my middle school for example, there were several people who "bombed" the test because they did not feel well that day. The test did not account for such an incident. These students, who were obviously bright and able to perform extremely well in a competitive environment were stripped away of their ability to go to a specialized high school, making the whole situation and the whole process unjust.
Many of you are quoting Mr. Hewitt, who says that he refuses to believe that there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city. He's 100% right, but if we continue to base our admissions criteria upon one test, African-American representation in high schools such as ours will fail to rise. If one test is the sole factor in determining acceptance, the simple choice of an A over a C on the grid could mean scoring just below the cutoff score. We shouldn't lower the cutoff for the minorities, but we really should consider adjusting the whole process itself.
Wow! So many rich comments! First off, Kudos to Razwan for bringing this back to a conflict between good and good ...
Vincent raises a wonderful point! Do we simply lower the acceptance scores for particular minorities? Should our efforts to fix this problem be proactive (trying to fix the problem in advance for young people who would take the test in the future) or be reactive (adjust the test or how we evaluate those who have taken the test when those test takers are around high school age)?
I think it fascinating to hear some of your stories, such as Shuaib's, about how some of us have attended rather underperforming middle schools, and yet, here we are, second year Stuyvesant students.
Nadine's comments strike a wonderful question: Do you know anyone who didn't get into Stuy who would've succeeded here, more so than others? If you can think of someone, perhaps the test isn't the best way to consider who attends our school. Should we consider recommendations? Extracurriculars? Other qualities that are important for enrollment at a university?
And finally, Madina. Thank you so much for your comments. You remind us that we live in a test taking culture, where bombing one test could mean a different direction for your life. What if you are stressed that day or were not emotionally prepared to take the exam? Should the trajectory of your life be forever changed?
Just to play devil's advocate, do you think it is a coincidence that so many Stuyvesant students agree that this exam is an appropriate measurement for enrollment? They are the students who passed the exam and got in, aren't they? Are they skeptical that under different conditions they might not have gained acceptance to Stuyvesant? In the very same way that some argue that by changing the exam we might be lowering standards, wouldn't we also be forcing ourselves to become more competitive, lest we might not get in?
And, I'm curious to how some of us react to this article as minorities living in NYC, but perhaps unlike the minorities cited in the NAACP lawsuit.
FINALLY, I AM SO PROUD OF ALL OF YOU FOR KEEPING THIS DEBATE PROFESSIONAL AND RESPECTFUL. RACE IS SUCH A TABOO ISSUE AND WHEN WE CAN DISCUSS RACE WITHOUT UGLY STEREOTYPES OR HATEFUL RHETORIC, WE CAN HAVE A TRULY FASCINATING CONVERSATION. LET'S MAINTAIN THIS LEVEL OF RESPECT FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS AS WE CONTINUE OUR DEBATE.
This issue is definitely a fight against good and good. The SHSAT and NAACP are both fighting to separate the students who are in the top tier of New York City public schools with the rest. However, both are in the shades of gray because it is unjust to base a student’s high school life, which can greatly influence their lives, on just one sole test. It is also unjust to lower the cutoff grades of the SHSAT just so that the Black and Latino student population have a greater chance of getting in to these high schools. To be blunt, the SHSAT is what it is, you either pass the cutoff score or you don’t. I highly agree with Schuab’s comments on how “that getting into a specialized high school is not based on how much you know, but on how much you can learn within a certain amount of time.” To tweak it a little more I feel like the test isn’t based on how hard u try, but just how experience you have with the material on the SHSAT. You can be somebody who has been failing middle school, but suddenly had a high enough score to get into a specialized high school. I am a Stuyvesant student, so it can be argued that I am biased towards the SHSAT just because I got in, but the thing is the SHSAT is designed so that everybody has a fair chance of getting in. Just because a certain type (s) of people can’t get in does not justify the face that we have to change the whole system. I disagree with Amys’ responses on the fact that the SHSAT is like the Olympics where blacks are dominantly the top tier of athletes and that nobody can really complain and ask for a handicap. This is because the SHSAT and the criteria of being an Olympic athlete are far apart. The SHSAT is based on just one test, while the Olympics are based on years of evaluation and pure hard work. I feel like everybody has the equal chance of studying for the SHSAT regardless of family background or financial state because there are tons of ways to study for this test. The fact is if some people don’t even know about specialized high schools why are we arguing to give an advantage to them. The result of you getting in or not is all based on the actual student themselves. I feel like the best solution for this is to leave the test as it is because even though there is always that 1 person with the ability to guess and still get in, the test is designed to be equal to everyone who is taking it and the changing factor is only the student themselves. My last point is that I feel like organizations like NAACP should spend last time arguing with the city to make these tests even more unfair by giving curves and instead improve these free programs for the kids who don’t have the same luxurious preps as the other kids.
Adding on to today's discussion (8th period) If we did lower the cutoff score for the SHSAT then wouldn't the kids from Brooklyn Tech and Bx. Sci that missed Stuyvesant by a few points get into Stuy or all Specialized High Schools in general? I really doubt that would help change the minority group that much.
Niaz this would be true if they were planning to lower the cutoff score in general but the NAACP wishes to only lower cutoff scores for black and hispanics or to introduce other elements that affect admissions (like grades, middle school, ethnicity) in hopes that this will allow for more blacks and hispanics in Stuyvesant. I dont think this is right for two reasons. One reason is that for every seat now being offered for black or hispanics that means that a seat has potentially been taken away from another student that has scored just as well on the SHSAT if not better. Essentially we would be creating opportunities for black people at the expense of children of other races who arent in any way to blame for the racial backgrounds of themselves and others. Secondly, doing this would most likely lower Stuyvesant's elite reputation simply because purposely taking in students that score lower on the SHSAT then the original cutoff means that we we will no longer be taking only the "best and the brightest". The kids who were rejected seats based on the idea of allowing more Blacks and Hispanics will go to other schools while we have lowered standards simply to become more diverse.
I think that the test is fine as it is. The amount of diversity in the school is not because of the test, but because of the social conditions we are currently living in. In the article that was posted on helicopter parenting, it was said that 72 percent of black children and 53 percent of hispanic children were born to single mothers (in 2008). I think that this contributes greatly to the number of hispanics and blacks at our school. If a child is born to a single mother, s/he was probably not initially wanted. The parent is also (most likely) not ready for the responsibility of taking care of offspring. If we can fix this, (along with other social conditions), then the amount of diversity in stuy would not even be a concern.
I believe that the SHSAT is fine the way it is. It is not biased at all. The results you get from taking the test has simply no connection with your ethnicity. Most people get good results on this test by taking test-prep courses. An interesting point brought up in the article was that some students that attend Bronx High School of Science believes that the family culture of Asian and white studens put a higher value on educational achievement than others. I can personally relate to this because my mother had me take 2 years of test prep for the SHSAT. So basically, the SHSAT is not biased and depends on how you are prepared for it. However, the SHSAT being the only way to get into one of the specialized high schools is a different story. I think that there should be a variety of ways to get into one of the eight elite schools. I have a friend who I view as an extraordinarily intelligent guy. He took the SHSAT, but did not manage to get into the school he wanted. His grades were excellent and he is a hardworking student, but on the day of the SHSAT, he was nervous and had a headache. If something was to be changed to have more colored people get into one of the specialized schools, it should not be the test. They government should just fund more test preparation classes for students who need them.
I just wanted to put my two cents in while playing the political correct police job
Let's not refer to any minority group as "colored". It's considered to be offensive and its a rather dated term (despite the NAACP's usage of the the term in its name which is more symbolic).
Abrar, sorry to use you as an example. Be careful of comments like "If a child is born to a single mother, s/he was probably not initially wanted." Not only is this a speculation, but has the potential to offend many people. Rather, try to focus on saying your point in a different way, perhaps focusing on how a single parent might not be as equipped to raise a child as a married couple. But don't suggest that single-mothers most likely didn't want the pregnancy in the first place.
However, Abrar's utilization of the Atlantic article is to be commend and I recommend others follow in suit.
Karandeep, you mentioned that allowing in particular students with lower scores on the SHSAT "would most likely lower Stuyvesant's elite reputation ... we we will no longer be taking only the "best and the brightest". How soon you forget our latest cheating scandal? What exactly is this "elite reputation"? I find it interesting that we've already sized up the potential students who might attend this school as failures, unable to keep up with the rest of us. Just to be clear, if someone doesn't do as well as the rest of us, then there's no way they could be a better student than any of us? There's no way they wouldn't have a higher average than any of you?
Could someone please explain to me how performance on this exam translates directly into academic success at Stuyvesant?
I did not mean to say that Stuyvesant students are smarter then everyone below the cutoff but that from the testing point of view Stuyvesant will no longer be taking the very highest students anymore unlike before so that would lower its reputation.
I believe that by achieving the cutoff score only demonstrates that the student has the knowledge and skills necessary to attend Stuyvesant. However, the test does not determine academic success because being intelligent does not guarantee high grades. Other factors come into effect like work ethic and how devoted the student is to his/her education.
The specialized high school exam works the way it is. I think that anyone who puts in the extra hours and seeks help is able to pass the test and get into the school that they want. The test is not a secret surprise test that only a certain group of people can do well on. There are practice tests and libraries with review books that people can use to study even if their schools have no offered in dept preparation for the test. There is enough time to study, in fact some people prep for years for the SHSAT. The test is an efficient way of determining who is ready for the difficulty of a particular school. Running a more extensive admissions program which includes essays, recommendations and grades is impractical and more bias than the specialized high school examination. Some teachers in a certain middle school has a different grading system that other teachers. Grades and recommendations are unfair because of this. Essays would take a long time to check and would also be graded by different people with different opinions on "good" writing. The test on the other hand does not discriminate and fairly evaluates right from wrong.
So, Ivan, are you implying that we should stop focus on school and extracurricular activities and instead, focus on studying for the SHSAT? Are you saying everything else in life should be based on a test to eliminate all basis? I hope not. The SHSAT questions are either right or wrong by judging if someone gets into a specialized high school just based solely on this unfair for most people. These tests fail to access the character of the test taker, after all, the only thing the test taker has to do is get the right answer. Furthermore, your assumption that the test does not discriminate is wrong. It discriminates against the rich and the poor, where the rich have the time and resources to do well and the poor that does not have nearly as much resources. We live in Manhattan where there are lots of resources condensed around us, but how about Staten Island? Compared the amount of libraries in Staten Island and Manhattan. With an island about half the size of Staten Island, we have about four times as much libraries as them. Do you think it is fair for them if we have our personal SHSAT classes while they have to walk a considerable distance to the nearest library to study? Instead we should add essays and other factors into the SHSATs. Essays can help the graders access the characters of the test takers. It allows them to see their planning skills, decision making skills, and much more. This skills are important to success later in life, as there are no correct answers in life. True, there might be bias in the grading systems and recommendations, but does that mean we have to SOLELY judge their eligibility by their grades? Of course not. Even though bias can be a important factor, what matters most is in the inside. The numbers that the SHSAT crunch out are not enough to judge our legibility for the specialized high schools.
I do not think doing well on the SHSAT directly means that someone is going to do well at Stuy. I feel that passing the exam is basically how prepared you are for it. However, being prepared for the exam and being prepared for Stuyvesant is two totally different things. In my situation, I went to prep classes almost every single day of the week to prepare for the test. However, a month into Stuy of freshman year, I realized that I was falling behind in a lot of my classes. I was well prepared to take the test, but not prepared for the work at Stuy. I think someone who does poorly on the test could still succeed at Stuy because many factors contribute to one’s score on the test. Someone could have had a really bad day on the day of the test or maybe someone could just be a really bad test taker. Therefore, I agree that the acceptance into specialized high schools should not be based solely on that one exam. I agree with the article that “grades, teacher recommendations, essays and interviews” should be considered when accepting a student. Also, I do not think that the acceptance score should be lowered for any particular group because by doing so it is saying that they do not have the ability to score high enough to get into a specialized high school.
Han Zhao, I'm not sure if you're the first to bring this up but your point about adding essays to assess the "character" of students taking the SHSAT is brilliant. We all know cheating is plaguing our school, and friends of mine who go to Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech say the situation is similar there. The system of having to succeed on just this one test, of scoring high on just this one occasion and you'll achieve your goal, is the system that germinates cheating. The mindset where education is not cumulative develops into that of a cheater, of someone who unfortunately misses the bigger picture of education as the pursuit of knowledge and not a means of momentary success. Essays would change it up- or the answer may be just to frankly change it up. The SHSAT is a well-defined exam; year after year Barron's invests good money in a book with the confidence that it's prep material will work. It does, just as the years of test prep classes do. This may seem irrational but the best way to "level the playing field" for students of all socioeconomic backgrounds would be to keep changing up the format, content, and style of the SHSAT. The ever-changing nature of the new exam would eliminate the advantages of certain classes and really test the abilities of students and not just their preparation skills. Finally, you can't miss the conflict of good and good here. The SHSAT strives to find the best students and give them the best opportunity New York City's education system has to offer; likewise the NAACP wants to find the best students and give them the best opportunity NYC's education has to offer. These are both good goals, why must it be so dramatic?
I don't see how the SHSAT's administration is racist. How can a test that's available to everyone be considered discriminating? However, including teacher recommendations and middle school transcript grades are biased. As Mr. Ferencz mentioned, writing teacher recommendations is just "writing 'This kid is great. This kid is great...' over and over again." Grades are decided by that same teacher and each teacher holds their students to different standards; it's why we have varying class contracts we sign at the beginning of the school year. Interviews are extremely time-consuming and who's to say that the interviewer is not racist? I'm not implying that they would or wouldn't be, but judging from the poll in class, the interviewer could very well be biased even if he/she was a good person. I'm being rather pessimistic, but I think this is all possible. And I agree with the idea that this is a good vs. good situation. The SHSAT system can't exactly make itself fairer. The opportunity to take the SHSAT is available to everyone and prep classes are out of its control. However, something has to be done about the lack of ethnic diversity in the specialized high schools and NAACP believes that lowering cutoff scores (but only for African Americans and Hispanics) will accomplish that. But it's not a satisfactory solution; it's belittling to the ones that get in without the special curve and the ones that get the same score, but are not eligible for the curve. Then they’ll feel that the SHSAT is racist against them. The NAACP should focus on raising awareness among the minorities; inform the public these schools exist and there are free prep classes for their admissions' test offered to those unable to afford outside tutoring. It's still hard to appease both sides. I agree an IQ test would probably be a better solution as that would render any prep class useless. As for "performance on this test directly translating to academic success in Stuyvesant" (or any specialized high school), it doesn't. As of right now, the SHSAT is a test that reflects how much one knows and how prepared one is for it, as many people have mentioned above. It’s what gives some the advantage and others a disadvantage.
I think that the SHSAT right now is as fair as it can be. It is the same test that every student who applies to take it, takes. I believe that NAACP's accusations against the DOE is illogical but understandable. I can see that if I was a member of the NAACP or a prominent black or hispanic person in society, there might be a problem with the lack of blacks and hispanics in the city high schools. However, I believe this lack of blacks and hispanics has anything to do with the test. What the NAACP talks about is the city not giving more opportunities for blacks and hispanics that are considered "poorer", to prepare for the SHSAT. One of the things that I see that the opposition to the DOE wants to consider more of those opportunities. I think that this will not help the growth of diversity among these specialized high schools. They (as in DOE and NAACP) should work together to encourage black and hispanics to place a bigger emphasis on education in their families. One of the bigger reasons why white and asians are the majority in these schools is because like the article states, white and asians parents put a great emphasis on having their kids get into a good school.
Another problem I believe that exists is the preparation that middle schools have for the SHSAT. Many middle schools do not prepare you for the SHSAT. Some middle schools are too easy with grading and passing causing students to believe that they're smarter than they actually are. One of the things that the NAACP brings up is the "academic desire and ambition and promise" of blacks and hispanics and that the test doesn't show their actual intelligence. That is an argument that can be used on any ethnic group. Also, if you are intelligent, then you should be able to get a good grade on the test. If the SHSAT was to be cancelled or changed to cap and allow certain number of ethnic groups, then 1) you are allowing students that may have promise, but lack the readiness to succeed in a rigorous school and 2) the test would be pointless if not "the top people" according to the scores do not get in. No change in the test is needed, but a change in the emphasis and readiness of certain people and ethnicity is needed.
I think that the SHSAT is 100% fair. (Note I am saying fair: by fair I don't mean equal.) The SHSAT puts you into a school based on the score of the kids of that year. If you're in the top 5% or so, you're going to get into Stuyvesant. I took the test because it totally disregards my criminal acts and grades. The SHSAT disregards almost everything in your past. The NAACP gives a good point of how there's isn't a great diversity in the Specialized High School, but if they were to include race, they might as well include grades and everything else. Then, the SHSAT wouldn't matter much. I blame it on the middle schools. After my first three months at Stuy I got a job at a Tutoring Center, and a few more jobs teaching really distant cousins. I noticed that all the stuff that's required on the test was taught at the end of the year for my middle school. If my middle school were a bit more advanced, we'd have a bit more than 20 people getting into Stuy per decade (yes that's accurate the recent 5 year total is actually 7). But even then, I'm pretty sure the kids who have 95 averages in my school can't get in. (There was this one girl, Samia, and she was loved by everyone, and she'd always tell me how she's gonna get into Stuy and I'm going to rot in Thomas Edison, but now I get to make fun of how she's in Townsend and I get to tell her to buzz off my facebook news feed, just a note I wanted to put in, and how her 7 other older failure sisters are insignificant (i know a bit mean but she deserves it) just wanted to add that). Well, there was this one girl Samia and she maintained a 95 average throughout all the years, and that's because the grading system was messed up in my middle school, I'd try so hard to actually understand the stuff being taught, and bad luck would always follow me, but Samia was such a cheater, she kissed up to every teacher (flashback: exactly like the stereotype of teacher's pet and kissing) and that's how she got a 95 average. Well my point is simple, the NAACP is very wrong, the test is fair, and if they win this case then the test will be insignificant and all the Specialized High Schools would be just regular schools with lots of floors, clean bathrooms, some air conditioning and pizza served in the lunchroom everyday.
(by saying blacks I'm not being racist, it's just shorter than African American)
Also I was with Niaz Ahmed and Sunny Quaderin during the HS fair and there was a similar case where this lady asked me what she does to get into Stuyvesant HS and I told her she has to take the SHSAT, then she asked me to give her a sample problem that's similar to questions in the test and I said x squared -12 equals 4 and she asked me what x is. (Also she asked me how many percentage of black people get into Stuy and I shrugged it off saying very high, there are like 10 blacks that get into our school out te thousands that take the test.) Think about it though, race doesn't mean anything when it comes to this test, their communities should be teaching them this stuff, you can't hide behind the fact that you're black. (Some kids go so far as to think they're funny by always saying "is it because I'm black"). In my neighborhood and Jackson Heights, we got a lot of brown people tutoring kids for the SHSAT and afterwards they reward those kids that get into the Specialized High Schools, they even held an award ceremony for Khan's Tutorial. In fact, my dad offered me whatever I wanted if I get into Stuy (although he did go back on his word when I requested for a Katana, Paintball Guns, Nerf Guns, Anything to do with Guns, Bow and arrows, and similar weapons). My point is, the NAACP should stop hiding behind the fact that their black, they can still read, write and try to rise to the top (hell I see black rappers always saying that they rise to the top and drop people down, now why can't you do that in the SHSAT).
(Also it was messed up how one of the ladies that I was talking to during High School Fair called me out and started dissing me about how I'm a four eyes, then told her daughter to jump in and make fun of me even though she has glasses.)
I believe the SHSAT is very fair. It tests for the same skills in every person. Alisa mentioned that different teachers hold their student to different standards. The same are true for schools. Whether it be a middle school, high school, or college, they test for different things. Some schools look at averages, some may look at extra curricular activities. Stuy and the other specialized high schools just happen to have the SHSAT. The same also applies for getting jobs. I'm not sure, but I think that there are companies that would administer a test and give the job to the people with highest score(provided they all have no criminal record). The company would not be racist if there happens to be one percent African Americans working for that company.
I do not think that the SHSAT is a clear prediction of school performance nor that it is the ideal exam for admission into specialized high schools. My parents paid for one summer of SHSAT prep at a local prepping center. Everyone worked hard, probably only because the thought of their parents' money was over their heads. From my experience, from those hours of what felt like cramming material I did not yet understand, I realized that the test merely seeks out a student's potential to learn from what knowledge their middle schools (and elementary schools) provided. The types of questions are seemingly complex, but actually simple, compilations of what is learned in class. Prep teaches how to utilize that knowledge in certain, limited situations. Prep students familiarize themselves with the types of problems and are ready for the exam. People who prep have a definite advantage over people who do not. However, if one is born clever and are able to think logically (and fast), passing without prep is possible. Therefore, I believe that all the people who got into the specialized high schools are either former, hardworking prep students or the more rare gifted and lucky students. Specialized high schools are not made up of the brightest students, hard work and devotion to school make the ultimate difference.
I admire that Vincent's courage in introducing the controversial idea of adding cutoffs for minority groups. It was likely that almost everyone would disagree with such a notion, as I do too. As students of Stuyvesant High School, students who got in, even if they believe they did not get into based on merit, would defend against giving blacks and Hispanics an advantage. The NAACP wishes to allow blacks and Hispanics more of a chance when applying for specialized high schools. However, such a change would only cause Asian and white students to work even harder when such an obstacle is blatantly and biasedly planted before them. Minority groups, might start slacking off in their studies, knowing of their advantage. We will be discriminating against their scores, for being lower, and for the test takers being of a different race. In general, no minority would want to enter a school known to have mostly the majority's members. On the other hand, I could defend Vincent's opinion by considering the alternative benefits. Lowering the standards may make the test even more intimidating for minorities since they are expected to all pass because of the advantage. The actual studying for the SHSAT, I believe will be helpful to anyone. The SHSAT takes basics learned in school and forces students to solve complex problems with their common sense (that they have developed from schooling). Even if the student fails to get into a specialized high school, perhaps by encouraging blacks and Hispanics to study with hope instead of assuming their child's definite failure would eventually allow more minorities in.
Although I disagree with how the SHSAT was designed, I also do not agree with the idea of an IQ test that many classmates (and course-mates) have mentioned. One result could be the same as the SHSAT. "IQ" tests could become standardized and prep courses following after the first of such given exams. Previous students have hinted towards the other possibility, of randomized IQ tests year after year. However, the tests would spin out of control since tests are never the same format, therefore never testing one year's group of applicants with the same fairness as another year's applicants. If this change was to be implemented, students specialized in certain topics, whichever the test-makers decide to choose for the year, would attend specialized high schools. Luck would be the limiting factor in these tests.
The aforementioned essays-method's flaws have already been addressed. Since most options do not work out, I would rather stay with the current (and convenient) method, the SHSAT. And that is not because I passed. If NAACP wants to have equality in education for blacks and Hispanics, then why specifically attack the specialized high schools? It has been proven that academic success is not proportionally increased by attending a specialized high school. Success in life is not determined by what your high school's reputation is if you do not think it to be. I am surprised by there are not specialized high schools with a black or Hispanic majority. If there were then, Asian and white parents should adapt their parenting skills and try to make their children rise up those schools as well. If the SHSAT can't judge character by including an essay, then why not make the final judge the speed at which one can learn. The topic of adding free prep programs has already been rolled around in many tongues, but I wanted to add that it is a good idea but it may only lead to gradual change. A push by the good-willed NAACP will only add pressure to blacks and Hispanics.
I think it's interesting how the article targets the SHSAT and the specialized high schools. It's not about changing this system in particular, but the whole testing system in general.
The way society judges whether or not a student is worthy of getting into a school or how smart a student is is how well a student can fill in a bubble sheet. That's the problem. These tests; the SHSAT, the ICEE, the SAT, the ACT, these tests aren't accurate whatsoever. These tests aren't based off the intellectual prowess of a student. These tests are based off of a certain format, and once you get used to the format you can do well on it. (For example, in the practice tests i've taken for the SHSAT i've came across problems that ask for the same solution, just with different numbers substituted in.)
The way students should be tested should be by interviews; seeing how students can respond quickly on their feet and interact with strangers are important skills to have in the "real world." Some students can be very skilled academically but have no social skills, no personality, no life. It's important to be well rounded and to be more than the scores of a report card.
Of course this way of testing student's abilities is flawed as well, but it's better than a scantron. Because like Madina said, what if you had a bad day or you messed up filling the scantron in? Does that mean you didn't have the intellectual means to get in?
This comment was more general a bit off topic. After answering the first time, i started to wonder. Is there a way to measure how smart a student is accurately? Also there will always be racism in the world and really in almost any scenario people can always accuse other of being racist. Why can't people accept the fact that the world is unfair, some people will get in and some people won't. (in, in this scenario is the school the student wants to get into)
I think that the point of the SHSAT is not to test one's intellectual level, but instead how hard they work. The reason the test is "biased" against Blacks and Hispanics is because they cannot get the amount of preparation for the test that many other ethnic backgrounds receive. Moreover, in those minority communities education is not as highly valued or thought of (usually) as in, for example, an Asian family. Also, many of the Eastern Asian students at Stuyvesant are second or even first generation, and their parents are used to the idea that hard work will lead directly to success. Black and Hispanic familes, on the other hand, have lived in the west for many generations, and because of that fact they believe that they do not have the money to go to college or any education after high school, so there is no point in going to a good high school. As the writer in the article said, "It's a socioeconomic problem."
I agree with the person before me who said that the test was fair, not equal. A large part of the SHSAT is being prepared for the format and the other part is having knowledge of the concepts, such as what is a main idea or how to solve quadratic equations. All this can be accomplished through preparation, either through a test-prep course or by studying SHSAT books independently. A major reason minorities such as blacks and hispanics do not get higher scores is because they lack these resources, such as money to take a test-prep course, or do not live near a library where they can access SHSAT practice books. Therefore, the reason for this "bias" is not the test itself, so I don't think lowering the cutoff score is the solution. Although the results of the test aren't strongly related to academic success, welcoming lower scores will mean that these students will be less prepared.
I think that the SHSAT test is fair. A lot of what happens in getting accepted depends on how well you did on the test. And how well we do on the test depends on how hard we work in preparing for the test. It is true that blacks and hispanics don't get higher scores and that they may lack the opportunity of test prep. However, I think that most of the material covered on the test is covered in school. If the SHSAT cutoff score was lowered, there would be more chance of someone who has worked very hard to prepare for the test to not get in and someone who hasn't worked as hard to get in, due to the lottery used in selection. This would be unfair for the people who worked endlessly to earn their way into the specialized high schools. In addition, lowering the cutoff would mean that less-ready people would be accepted into the harder schools like Stuyvesant, and they may not be up to the challenge that these schools offer. The unfairness isn't associated with the test, but it may be the difference in the amount of opportunities for preparation instead.
I don't think that we should let in people on a minority status alone, because the test is blind to anything but the scores of the student and is based on merit. It would bring the school's status and competition down as now a lot of the kids who come in because of their racial minority wouldn't be up to the standard of kids who came in based on scores alone. Though I agree that intelligence is not based on how much you know, but on how quickly you learn, you need to have a certain degree of knowledge already to keep up with Stuy's course work and there wouldn't be any time to teach the minority kids things that they should have learned in middle school, but were not taught. That, of course, would be the problem why they're not getting high enough scores or even taking the test to get into a specialized high school. The SHSAT is not based on deductive skills as much as a how-much-you've-learned test. That's why it gives an advantage to kids who have parents who teach them extra, a middle school who taught them beyond the curriculum, or prep classes that help you prepare.“I refuse to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city..." Mr. Hewitt says in the article. There aren't only 19 smart African Americans, but there are 19 African Americans who were taught and prepared enough for the test. I'm sure many of them would have never even heard of the SHSAT, while other kids (Like Asians and Caucasians) might have been preparing since they were 10. I think instead of letting the minority in, we should change the test to more of an IQ test, but i'm sure some people might oppose to that as well. There's no easy solution because there will always be an opposing voice.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, the SHSAT is as fair as it can possibly be. With such a vast amount of students that desire to belong to at least one of the specialized high schools like Stuyvesant, not all can get in- and that's for a reason. You need competition in order to produce the successful results that everyone expects these days and when the best compete with the best, that's when you get results. As for the issue with race and minority, I don't think it's fair as to simply lower the standards for them to get in. Everybody should be given an equal chance to try to get in, and if they don't, they don't. Think of it as the Olympics. African Americans are usually amazing runners/great athletes and tend to dominate that area of sports. If Asians or white people choose to compete, would they be allowed to cry victim, saying that they are unjustly challenged and should be given a handicap? No they would not. This should be applied to our educational systems. It's not surprising for minorities to want to challenge a system that does not give them the results they want, and their request is normal enough. But then you have the other group, who think that nothing is blatantly unjust in the system. And they are right to think that too, due to how long the system has been in place, and that it hasn't concluded in too many flaws. Overall, it's hard to define the line between black and white without cutting out the large gray area too.
ReplyDeleteAs for Radhika's comment, I mostly agree with her views, except for that part about being able to get in due to prep and helpful parents. I am a firm believer that you only get what you want with hard work, and that life is not fair. I hope this does not make me a horrible, mean person but I can't help but feel a little annoyed whem people think admission is due to prep. It is, but not "prep" as in extra classes; it's the "preparation" that results in admission to the high school of your choice. Preparation is doing everything that you can to know that you will achieve your goal. This can mean extra classes as Radhika meant, but it's also largely about you as a person. Are you hardworking? Do you strive to succeed even when the odds are against you? I believe that that is why so many whites or Asians can get into the specialized high schools- because they place so much value into education and try to make sure that they will do well in life by hard work. You can always go to prep class, but how hard you work there too plays a factor in what help you receive. As for middle schools, you also have to take a test to get into a good middle school remember? I don't necessary remember the name, but I remember there was a test with an enormous amount of questions and little amount of time. If you tried hard then, then you should have gotten into the middle school you wanted. Usually, better middle schools mean better educations, so that problem is a problem within itself. And lastly, helpful parents are an advantage, I have to agree with Radhika there. But even if your parents aren't willing to spend an hour with you at the table doing homework doesn't mean that you are doomed. There are libraries that offer help, schools that have free classes, and plenty of opportunities to try to get extra help. It's not that easy to find, but if you so want to do well on the SHSAT, you'll do what you can to get yourself a spot. I know my thoughts are not that clear or concise as they should be, but I hope my point speaks my ideas. “I refuse to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city..." says Mr. Hewitt. I agree with him- there can be more. But even if they are geniuses, they have to be willing to use their genius to their advantage and apply to their education. Sometimes it is better to be not all that smart but be hardworking, than to be a genius but lazy. Maybe that's the case for the minorities. I can't speak for everyone, just myself. I am not being critical, just trying to make sense of what is happening so far, and taking on my view of it.
ReplyDeleteBut it's difficult to assert that an entire minority group displays a particular characteristic. Isn't that racism? Amy, you've raised some fascinating points. You've discussed the role of parents, access to shsat prep classes, and a desire to work hard. But what if I'm from a neighborhood where shsat classes aren't offered? Or what if I'm from a single-parent household whose parent works two jobs and cannot push me to work my hardest because s/he isn't around?
ReplyDeleteI don't think that this argument is one that would suggest that some backgrounds have a proclivity for success, but instead, that individuals of a certain background in particularly poor socio-economic neighborhoods/situations should have an opportunity to compete academically at our school. (These are just ideas for discussion).
But what about the test itself? What's on the test? Does the content of the test accurately suggest who belongs in this school and who doesn't?
Also, an article if you're interested ... http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/the-real-problem-with-helicopter-parents-there-arent-enough-of-them/263410/
I feel that African Americans and Hispanics should be allowed to get a lower score than others on the SHSAT exam. For example, if the minimum score to get into our school is 562, African Americans and Hispanics should be allowed to get at least a 532 instead of a 562. Although this may be a little racist, African Americans and Hispanics will be grateful for this chance because there will be more diversity in the most prestigious high schools. However, there is one thing that I disagree with. Noah Morrison said, “The test is fine, but there need to be more opportunities for people to do well on it. There need to be more test-prep programs in underachieving middle schools with high black and Latino populations. It’s a socioeconomic problem.” However, this is being racist, too. It’s not only the blacks and Latinos who are poor. There are also poor Asians and whites who manage to get into the specialized high schools. For example, my friend (I’m not going to mention his name for privacy purposes) had a mother who never cared for him and was never home. He studied on his own on his free time and managed to get into Bronx Science. The blame is not supposed to be put on the test. It’s supposed to be put on the students. If the students try hard and study on their free time with books from the library, they are bound to achieve the best. Preps and special courses are not significantly helpful because in the end, students still have to study on their own. I believe that African Americans and Hispanics can manage to get into specialized high schools if they give up part of their social life and use it for studying for the SHSAT. Trying your best will make you achieve the best.
DeleteI agree with Vincent Feng on the matter of how poorer white and Asian student still strive to do good in this test, even without the benefit of test prep or parent who push hard. But I disagree with his statement that African American and Hispanics should get an easier chance to get in this school. I don't say this as a way to be racist and say they don't belong in Specialized High Schools, because they have every right to be, but to do this would not only be fair to other minority groups, it is also an insult to these people. I know many African American and Hispanics who are brilliant and worked hard to get into the schools. But if the NAACP believe that they need an advantage over other students, they are basically saying that these people can't get in otherwise, which is untrue because we do have extremely smart African American and Hispanics. Lastly, although the NAACP claims that there is no racial diversity in all the Specialized High Schools, but I myself have seen this to be untrue in the Bronx High School of Science, which I attended my freshman year.
DeleteI have to agree a bit with everyone else that commented here. The test is not used to tell how smart you are, instead it is used to see how much effort you put into a certain goal. A student with an 80 average (with the right amount of effort) might get into Stuyvesant whereas a valedictorian of the school with a 99 average might not. The test offers a fair chance to anyone who tries. It's the whole "u give what you get" situation. Some of the blame can also be put on the parents. It's up to the parents to steer their kids in the right direction. But some parents are so unacknowledged that it annoys me. For example, I was volunteering at the High School Fair about 2-3 weeks ago and i was handing out fliers to some parents. This couple grabs a flier from me and the man goes " So where is Stuyvesant", before i can respond the lady goes " Oh, it's in the Bronx honey, it's too far." In my mind I'm saying WOW and i later told them that Stuyvesant was in Manhattan and that you had to take a test for it. After i told them that they were shocked and just walked away. But this argument still works both ways. That same day at the High School Fair i handed out a flier to this black lady that took the flier and asked me what school it was for. It told her it was for Stuyvesant and she said "My son's not going to get in there , he's black. At that point i did feel bad for some black students. On the other hand. Some of their kids do get the required score for a specialized school but they choose not go.
ReplyDeleteNiaz i agree and disagree with what you think the role of parents should be. I think that whether or not the parent steers their child in the "right direction" should not and doesn't not always mean that their child will end up going in that direction. At the end of the day it really is up to the student. It depends whether or not the student wants it; it being getting into a specialized highschool, or reaching a goal.
DeleteHowever, i believe that one of the responsibilities of a parent is to teach their children to act outside the sterotype attributed with their gender, race ,or sexuality.
As for the article, I think that there is nothing wrong with the specialized High School exam. Like others have said, this test isn't based upon a student's intelligence, rather how well they can do a certain type of problem in a certain amount of time in a slightly pressured atmosphere. Some say that poor kids cannot do well because they can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars on prepschool. However you don't need to go to prep school to do well. You can go to the library and check out SHSAT prep books, or find a dream program near or in your school area. I agree completely with Bloomberg, no one is looking at the student's background, race, gender, sexuality, neighborhood or school/ school grades.
And honestly, if you can't handle the test, you really won't be able to handle the schoolwork or the amount of pressure there is to do well in a specialized high school.
I disagree with Vincent because he contradicted his point when answering to Noah. He said that being poor doesn't affect the person, if the person wants to do go, he will do good. He also said that the DOE has to lower their standards for races such as African Americans, and Hispanics, but if they wanted to study, they would have studied and looked up free tests online, or even go to the library. The only thing I believe would help is that the parents of the minorities not to be putting them down. Niaz said that the woman said my son isn't going to go, he's black. Even if the child was smart and has the ability to get into Stuyvesant, their parents would let them down. I know my parents were the only people keeping me going. They would tell me that if I have my mind set on something, that I could accomplish anything. When I got my results back and I didn't want to open the envelope because I was scared, my parents told me that wherever I go, I will make the best out of it and they volunteered to throw it out if I was too scared. That was the inspiration. That was what got my into Stuyvesant ( that and studying A LOT).
ReplyDeleteThe conflict between the NAACP and the SHSAT is a conflict between good and good. The SHSAT is an admission test which is designed to test student’s math and English skills. It eliminates bias because everyone who wants to attend the schools has to take it and get the cutoff score rather which is better than basing it off grades because every school is different and it may be easier to do better in one school than another school. The NAACP just wants more Black and Latinos to have a chance to attend Specialized high schools which is understandable because they want Blacks and Latinos to have equal opportunities as other races. I agree with Radhika’s comment “there's no easy solution because there will always be an opposing voice.” Also the problem is very complex.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Vincent because lowering the test standards for African Americans and Hispanics would not be beneficial for the students because by then they will not be prepared for the specialized high schools. Also, it is unfair to students of other races that they have to work really hard to get into specialized high schools while Black and Latino students can get in with a lower cut off score.
My solution to this problem is that the NAACP and DOE need to go to the root of the problem of why African Americans and Latinos are not getting into specialized high schools. One of the main problems is that in many underprivileged districts with a high amount of African Americans and Latinos the students don’t have the proper resources to be well prepared for the SHSAT. For instance, I attended a middle school like this and I noticed is that our curriculum wouldn’t even be close to preparing us for a test like the SHSAT and there were little to none resources for preparing for the admissions test at my school. This is why I took it upon myself to take prep classes and prepare at home. There are some programs to help minorities in underprivileged middle school districts. I even attended one for some time but there were many flaws for instance the classes were very crowded and many students did not take these classes seriously because they did not want to attend Specialized high schools. This brings me to my other point which is that many African American and Latinos aren’t even informed about what specialized high schools are and the benefits of going to these schools. Instead of changing the admissions procedure, the solution should be to have mandatory informational presentations for all students about specialized high schools sometime in the 7th grade so that students will know about these schools. In addition, free test prep should be available to all African Americans and Latinos and it should be changed so that it is more effective and not too challenging or intimidating.
I believe that getting into a specialized high school is not based on how much you know, but on how much you can learn within a certain amount of time. Many Asians and Whites have been studying for the SHSAT since they were in elementary school. This allows them to learn far more than someone that starts studying only a week before the test. This differs from the majority of Blacks and Hispanics. The students in my elementary school, which was predominantly Black and Hispanic (80%), were not made aware of what a good middle school or high school was. This shows that it is the responsibility of the elementary and middle schools to make a child and his/her parents aware of specialized schools. It was not until 7th grade when my parents were made aware of Stuyvesant, and it was not until the summer before the SHSAT when I started studying. Perhaps one of the biggest reasons as to why there are so few Blacks and Hispanics in specialized school is because they are not aware of what a specialized high school is until perhaps a few weeks before the SHSAT, which is not enough time to learn as much as a someone who’s been studying for years. When someone in my neighborhood asks me which high school I attend, I reply Stuyvesant High School. They often think I am talking about Bedford-Stuyvesant Prep, which shows that many minorities are not aware of specialized high schools at all, and racial discrimination is not to blame for the lack of Blacks and Hispanics at elite schools. However, not all Blacks and Hispanics are not aware of specialized high schools. The ones that are aware are often economically disadvantaged, and have to resort to enrolling their kids in free local prep classes. However, many Blacks and Hispanics live in neighborhoods where prep classes are not offered. It is then the parent’s responsibility, as well as the student’s, to seek help in finding ways of transportation to areas where help is offered. As Albus Dumbledore says, “You will find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it.” This is true for nearly every New York City public school. Every school has a guidance counselor whose goal is to help students succeed. Mr. Hewitt is right in saying that he refuses to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city, because that is not the case. While many Blacks and Hispanics are smart, few are encouraged to use that ability to gain entrance to the city’s elite schools. The solution to this problem is not ridiculing the SHSAT and the schools for being racially discriminating, but by allowing Black and Hispanic communities to become aware of specialized high schools early on, and creating tutoring centers in neighborhoods that don’t have them.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with the quote, “I think that Stuyvesant and these other schools are as fair as fair can be,” Mr. Bloomberg said. “There’s nothing subjective about this. You pass the test, you get the highest score, you get into the school — no matter what your ethnicity, no matter what your economic background is. That’s been the tradition in these schools since they were founded, and it’s going to continue to be.” This is what I was saying earlier. The only thing that I think could be even fairer (if that is even proper grammar) is that maybe the specialized high school would be like the junior high school way of choosing students. This was based on the New York state tests and the Olsat (Otis–Lennon School Ability Test) test. Instead of the New York state tests, maybe the specialized high schools would look at your report cards, or your teacher recommendations, because some people aren't good at taking tests, but are the brightest students I know. I had a friend who was the valedictorian of the best academy of IS 187 (or at least my opinion) and she didn't do good on the test, even though she is super smart and could have done much better on the test if it wasn't a "pressured" test. She is Hispanic, but her race had nothing to do with the way she did on the test. She was just worried. This shows that your race isn't who you are. Its not like what you eat is who your are. You make up the school, the school doesn't make you up.
ReplyDeleteAlthough you guys bring up great points, I feel that basing a student's admission solely upon ONE test is preposterous. It's simply absurd to think that one test can encompass all the qualities of a given student. I think that the Specialized High Schools should take on more of a college-admissions approach, which was mentioned in the article as the method by which other high-achieving schools select their student body. For example, when applying to an elite four year college, one does not simply provide the school with SAT grades. Instead, one supplements their application with notes on their extracurriculars, their regular pastimes and hobbies, and their dreams and goals for the future. Although I do not suggest we implement this approach 100%, I do feel that we should look at other things besides the SHSAT. Taking students from my middle school for example, there were several people who "bombed" the test because they did not feel well that day. The test did not account for such an incident. These students, who were obviously bright and able to perform extremely well in a competitive environment were stripped away of their ability to go to a specialized high school, making the whole situation and the whole process unjust.
ReplyDeleteMany of you are quoting Mr. Hewitt, who says that he refuses to believe that there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city. He's 100% right, but if we continue to base our admissions criteria upon one test, African-American representation in high schools such as ours will fail to rise. If one test is the sole factor in determining acceptance, the simple choice of an A over a C on the grid could mean scoring just below the cutoff score. We shouldn't lower the cutoff for the minorities, but we really should consider adjusting the whole process itself.
Wow! So many rich comments! First off, Kudos to Razwan for bringing this back to a conflict between good and good ...
ReplyDeleteVincent raises a wonderful point! Do we simply lower the acceptance scores for particular minorities? Should our efforts to fix this problem be proactive (trying to fix the problem in advance for young people who would take the test in the future) or be reactive (adjust the test or how we evaluate those who have taken the test when those test takers are around high school age)?
I think it fascinating to hear some of your stories, such as Shuaib's, about how some of us have attended rather underperforming middle schools, and yet, here we are, second year Stuyvesant students.
Nadine's comments strike a wonderful question: Do you know anyone who didn't get into Stuy who would've succeeded here, more so than others? If you can think of someone, perhaps the test isn't the best way to consider who attends our school. Should we consider recommendations? Extracurriculars? Other qualities that are important for enrollment at a university?
And finally, Madina. Thank you so much for your comments. You remind us that we live in a test taking culture, where bombing one test could mean a different direction for your life. What if you are stressed that day or were not emotionally prepared to take the exam? Should the trajectory of your life be forever changed?
Just to play devil's advocate, do you think it is a coincidence that so many Stuyvesant students agree that this exam is an appropriate measurement for enrollment? They are the students who passed the exam and got in, aren't they? Are they skeptical that under different conditions they might not have gained acceptance to Stuyvesant? In the very same way that some argue that by changing the exam we might be lowering standards, wouldn't we also be forcing ourselves to become more competitive, lest we might not get in?
And, I'm curious to how some of us react to this article as minorities living in NYC, but perhaps unlike the minorities cited in the NAACP lawsuit.
FINALLY, I AM SO PROUD OF ALL OF YOU FOR KEEPING THIS DEBATE PROFESSIONAL AND RESPECTFUL. RACE IS SUCH A TABOO ISSUE AND WHEN WE CAN DISCUSS RACE WITHOUT UGLY STEREOTYPES OR HATEFUL RHETORIC, WE CAN HAVE A TRULY FASCINATING CONVERSATION. LET'S MAINTAIN THIS LEVEL OF RESPECT FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS AS WE CONTINUE OUR DEBATE.
This issue is definitely a fight against good and good. The SHSAT and NAACP are both fighting to separate the students who are in the top tier of New York City public schools with the rest. However, both are in the shades of gray because it is unjust to base a student’s high school life, which can greatly influence their lives, on just one sole test. It is also unjust to lower the cutoff grades of the SHSAT just so that the Black and Latino student population have a greater chance of getting in to these high schools. To be blunt, the SHSAT is what it is, you either pass the cutoff score or you don’t. I highly agree with Schuab’s comments on how “that getting into a specialized high school is not based on how much you know, but on how much you can learn within a certain amount of time.” To tweak it a little more I feel like the test isn’t based on how hard u try, but just how experience you have with the material on the SHSAT. You can be somebody who has been failing middle school, but suddenly had a high enough score to get into a specialized high school. I am a Stuyvesant student, so it can be argued that I am biased towards the SHSAT just because I got in, but the thing is the SHSAT is designed so that everybody has a fair chance of getting in. Just because a certain type (s) of people can’t get in does not justify the face that we have to change the whole system. I disagree with Amys’ responses on the fact that the SHSAT is like the Olympics where blacks are dominantly the top tier of athletes and that nobody can really complain and ask for a handicap. This is because the SHSAT and the criteria of being an Olympic athlete are far apart. The SHSAT is based on just one test, while the Olympics are based on years of evaluation and pure hard work. I feel like everybody has the equal chance of studying for the SHSAT regardless of family background or financial state because there are tons of ways to study for this test. The fact is if some people don’t even know about specialized high schools why are we arguing to give an advantage to them. The result of you getting in or not is all based on the actual student themselves. I feel like the best solution for this is to leave the test as it is because even though there is always that 1 person with the ability to guess and still get in, the test is designed to be equal to everyone who is taking it and the changing factor is only the student themselves. My last point is that I feel like organizations like NAACP should spend last time arguing with the city to make these tests even more unfair by giving curves and instead improve these free programs for the kids who don’t have the same luxurious preps as the other kids.
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ReplyDeleteAdding on to today's discussion (8th period) If we did lower the cutoff score for the SHSAT then wouldn't the kids from Brooklyn Tech and Bx. Sci that missed Stuyvesant by a few points get into Stuy or all Specialized High Schools in general? I really doubt that would help change the minority group that much.
ReplyDeleteNiaz this would be true if they were planning to lower the cutoff score in general but the NAACP wishes to only lower cutoff scores for black and hispanics or to introduce other elements that affect admissions (like grades, middle school, ethnicity) in hopes that this will allow for more blacks and hispanics in Stuyvesant. I dont think this is right for two reasons. One reason is that for every seat now being offered for black or hispanics that means that a seat has potentially been taken away from another student that has scored just as well on the SHSAT if not better. Essentially we would be creating opportunities for black people at the expense of children of other races who arent in any way to blame for the racial backgrounds of themselves and others. Secondly, doing this would most likely lower Stuyvesant's elite reputation simply because purposely taking in students that score lower on the SHSAT then the original cutoff means that we we will no longer be taking only the "best and the brightest". The kids who were rejected seats based on the idea of allowing more Blacks and Hispanics will go to other schools while we have lowered standards simply to become more diverse.
DeleteI think that the test is fine as it is. The amount of diversity in the school is not because of the test, but because of the social conditions we are currently living in. In the article that was posted on helicopter parenting, it was said that 72 percent of black children and 53 percent of hispanic children were born to single mothers (in 2008). I think that this contributes greatly to the number of hispanics and blacks at our school. If a child is born to a single mother, s/he was probably not initially wanted. The parent is also (most likely) not ready for the responsibility of taking care of offspring. If we can fix this, (along with other social conditions), then the amount of diversity in stuy would not even be a concern.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the SHSAT is fine the way it is. It is not biased at all. The results you get from taking the test has simply no connection with your ethnicity. Most people get good results on this test by taking test-prep courses. An interesting point brought up in the article was that some students that attend Bronx High School of Science believes that the family culture of Asian and white studens put a higher value on educational achievement than others. I can personally relate to this because my mother had me take 2 years of test prep for the SHSAT. So basically, the SHSAT is not biased and depends on how you are prepared for it. However, the SHSAT being the only way to get into one of the specialized high schools is a different story. I think that there should be a variety of ways to get into one of the eight elite schools. I have a friend who I view as an extraordinarily intelligent guy. He took the SHSAT, but did not manage to get into the school he wanted. His grades were excellent and he is a hardworking student, but on the day of the SHSAT, he was nervous and had a headache. If something was to be changed to have more colored people get into one of the specialized schools, it should not be the test. They government should just fund more test preparation classes for students who need them.
ReplyDeleteSo!
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to put my two cents in while playing the political correct police job
Let's not refer to any minority group as "colored". It's considered to be offensive and its a rather dated term (despite the NAACP's usage of the the term in its name which is more symbolic).
Abrar, sorry to use you as an example. Be careful of comments like "If a child is born to a single mother, s/he was probably not initially wanted." Not only is this a speculation, but has the potential to offend many people. Rather, try to focus on saying your point in a different way, perhaps focusing on how a single parent might not be as equipped to raise a child as a married couple. But don't suggest that single-mothers most likely didn't want the pregnancy in the first place.
However, Abrar's utilization of the Atlantic article is to be commend and I recommend others follow in suit.
Karandeep, you mentioned that allowing in particular students with lower scores on the SHSAT "would most likely lower Stuyvesant's elite reputation ... we we will no longer be taking only the "best and the brightest". How soon you forget our latest cheating scandal? What exactly is this "elite reputation"? I find it interesting that we've already sized up the potential students who might attend this school as failures, unable to keep up with the rest of us. Just to be clear, if someone doesn't do as well as the rest of us, then there's no way they could be a better student than any of us? There's no way they wouldn't have a higher average than any of you?
Could someone please explain to me how performance on this exam translates directly into academic success at Stuyvesant?
I did not mean to say that Stuyvesant students are smarter then everyone below the cutoff but that from the testing point of view Stuyvesant will no longer be taking the very highest students anymore unlike before so that would lower its reputation.
DeleteI believe that by achieving the cutoff score only demonstrates that the student has the knowledge and skills necessary to attend Stuyvesant. However, the test does not determine academic success because being intelligent does not guarantee high grades. Other factors come into effect like work ethic and how devoted the student is to his/her education.
DeleteThe specialized high school exam works the way it is. I think that anyone who puts in the extra hours and seeks help is able to pass the test and get into the school that they want. The test is not a secret surprise test that only a certain group of people can do well on. There are practice tests and libraries with review books that people can use to study even if their schools have no offered in dept preparation for the test. There is enough time to study, in fact some people prep for years for the SHSAT. The test is an efficient way of determining who is ready for the difficulty of a particular school. Running a more extensive admissions program which includes essays, recommendations and grades is impractical and more bias than the specialized high school examination. Some teachers in a certain middle school has a different grading system that other teachers. Grades and recommendations are unfair because of this. Essays would take a long time to check and would also be graded by different people with different opinions on "good" writing. The test on the other hand does not discriminate and fairly evaluates right from wrong.
ReplyDeleteSo, Ivan, are you implying that we should stop focus on school and extracurricular activities and instead, focus on studying for the SHSAT? Are you saying everything else in life should be based on a test to eliminate all basis? I hope not. The SHSAT questions are either right or wrong by judging if someone gets into a specialized high school just based solely on this unfair for most people. These tests fail to access the character of the test taker, after all, the only thing the test taker has to do is get the right answer.
DeleteFurthermore, your assumption that the test does not discriminate is wrong. It discriminates against the rich and the poor, where the rich have the time and resources to do well and the poor that does not have nearly as much resources. We live in Manhattan where there are lots of resources condensed around us, but how about Staten Island? Compared the amount of libraries in Staten Island and Manhattan. With an island about half the size of Staten Island, we have about four times as much libraries as them. Do you think it is fair for them if we have our personal SHSAT classes while they have to walk a considerable distance to the nearest library to study?
Instead we should add essays and other factors into the SHSATs. Essays can help the graders access the characters of the test takers. It allows them to see their planning skills, decision making skills, and much more. This skills are important to success later in life, as there are no correct answers in life.
True, there might be bias in the grading systems and recommendations, but does that mean we have to SOLELY judge their eligibility by their grades? Of course not. Even though bias can be a important factor, what matters most is in the inside. The numbers that the SHSAT crunch out are not enough to judge our legibility for the specialized high schools.
Wouldn't a person in a less resourceful area also lack the skills of writing a well written essay?
DeleteI still stick with the idea of an IQ test
DeleteI do not think doing well on the SHSAT directly means that someone is going to do well at Stuy. I feel that passing the exam is basically how prepared you are for it. However, being prepared for the exam and being prepared for Stuyvesant is two totally different things. In my situation, I went to prep classes almost every single day of the week to prepare for the test. However, a month into Stuy of freshman year, I realized that I was falling behind in a lot of my classes. I was well prepared to take the test, but not prepared for the work at Stuy. I think someone who does poorly on the test could still succeed at Stuy because many factors contribute to one’s score on the test. Someone could have had a really bad day on the day of the test or maybe someone could just be a really bad test taker. Therefore, I agree that the acceptance into specialized high schools should not be based solely on that one exam. I agree with the article that “grades, teacher recommendations, essays and interviews” should be considered when accepting a student.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I do not think that the acceptance score should be lowered for any particular group because by doing so it is saying that they do not have the ability to score high enough to get into a specialized high school.
Want to say what the public has to say? Check out the comments on this New York Times article written only hours ago:
ReplyDeletehttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/at-elite-schools-a-single-test-comes-under-review/
Han Zhao, I'm not sure if you're the first to bring this up but your point about adding essays to assess the "character" of students taking the SHSAT is brilliant. We all know cheating is plaguing our school, and friends of mine who go to Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech say the situation is similar there. The system of having to succeed on just this one test, of scoring high on just this one occasion and you'll achieve your goal, is the system that germinates cheating. The mindset where education is not cumulative develops into that of a cheater, of someone who unfortunately misses the bigger picture of education as the pursuit of knowledge and not a means of momentary success.
ReplyDeleteEssays would change it up- or the answer may be just to frankly change it up. The SHSAT is a well-defined exam; year after year Barron's invests good money in a book with the confidence that it's prep material will work. It does, just as the years of test prep classes do. This may seem irrational but the best way to "level the playing field" for students of all socioeconomic backgrounds would be to keep changing up the format, content, and style of the SHSAT. The ever-changing nature of the new exam would eliminate the advantages of certain classes and really test the abilities of students and not just their preparation skills.
Finally, you can't miss the conflict of good and good here. The SHSAT strives to find the best students and give them the best opportunity New York City's education system has to offer; likewise the NAACP wants to find the best students and give them the best opportunity NYC's education has to offer. These are both good goals, why must it be so dramatic?
I don't see how the SHSAT's administration is racist. How can a test that's available to everyone be considered discriminating? However, including teacher recommendations and middle school transcript grades are biased. As Mr. Ferencz mentioned, writing teacher recommendations is just "writing 'This kid is great. This kid is great...' over and over again." Grades are decided by that same teacher and each teacher holds their students to different standards; it's why we have varying class contracts we sign at the beginning of the school year. Interviews are extremely time-consuming and who's to say that the interviewer is not racist? I'm not implying that they would or wouldn't be, but judging from the poll in class, the interviewer could very well be biased even if he/she was a good person. I'm being rather pessimistic, but I think this is all possible.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with the idea that this is a good vs. good situation. The SHSAT system can't exactly make itself fairer. The opportunity to take the SHSAT is available to everyone and prep classes are out of its control. However, something has to be done about the lack of ethnic diversity in the specialized high schools and NAACP believes that lowering cutoff scores (but only for African Americans and Hispanics) will accomplish that. But it's not a satisfactory solution; it's belittling to the ones that get in without the special curve and the ones that get the same score, but are not eligible for the curve. Then they’ll feel that the SHSAT is racist against them. The NAACP should focus on raising awareness among the minorities; inform the public these schools exist and there are free prep classes for their admissions' test offered to those unable to afford outside tutoring. It's still hard to appease both sides. I agree an IQ test would probably be a better solution as that would render any prep class useless.
As for "performance on this test directly translating to academic success in Stuyvesant" (or any specialized high school), it doesn't. As of right now, the SHSAT is a test that reflects how much one knows and how prepared one is for it, as many people have mentioned above. It’s what gives some the advantage and others a disadvantage.
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ReplyDeleteI think that the SHSAT right now is as fair as it can be. It is the same test that every student who applies to take it, takes. I believe that NAACP's accusations against the DOE is illogical but understandable. I can see that if I was a member of the NAACP or a prominent black or hispanic person in society, there might be a problem with the lack of blacks and hispanics in the city high schools. However, I believe this lack of blacks and hispanics has anything to do with the test. What the NAACP talks about is the city not giving more opportunities for blacks and hispanics that are considered "poorer", to prepare for the SHSAT. One of the things that I see that the opposition to the DOE wants to consider more of those opportunities. I think that this will not help the growth of diversity among these specialized high schools. They (as in DOE and NAACP) should work together to encourage black and hispanics to place a bigger emphasis on education in their families. One of the bigger reasons why white and asians are the majority in these schools is because like the article states, white and asians parents put a great emphasis on having their kids get into a good school.
ReplyDeleteAnother problem I believe that exists is the preparation that middle schools have for the SHSAT. Many middle schools do not prepare you for the SHSAT. Some middle schools are too easy with grading and passing causing students to believe that they're smarter than they actually are. One of the things that the NAACP brings up is the "academic desire and ambition and promise" of blacks and hispanics and that the test doesn't show their actual intelligence. That is an argument that can be used on any ethnic group. Also, if you are intelligent, then you should be able to get a good grade on the test. If the SHSAT was to be cancelled or changed to cap and allow certain number of ethnic groups, then 1) you are allowing students that may have promise, but lack the readiness to succeed in a rigorous school and 2) the test would be pointless if not "the top people" according to the scores do not get in. No change in the test is needed, but a change in the emphasis and readiness of certain people and ethnicity is needed.
I think that the SHSAT is 100% fair. (Note I am saying fair: by fair I don't mean equal.) The SHSAT puts you into a school based on the score of the kids of that year. If you're in the top 5% or so, you're going to get into Stuyvesant. I took the test because it totally disregards my criminal acts and grades. The SHSAT disregards almost everything in your past. The NAACP gives a good point of how there's isn't a great diversity in the Specialized High School, but if they were to include race, they might as well include grades and everything else. Then, the SHSAT wouldn't matter much. I blame it on the middle schools. After my first three months at Stuy I got a job at a Tutoring Center, and a few more jobs teaching really distant cousins. I noticed that all the stuff that's required on the test was taught at the end of the year for my middle school. If my middle school were a bit more advanced, we'd have a bit more than 20 people getting into Stuy per decade (yes that's accurate the recent 5 year total is actually 7). But even then, I'm pretty sure the kids who have 95 averages in my school can't get in. (There was this one girl, Samia, and she was loved by everyone, and she'd always tell me how she's gonna get into Stuy and I'm going to rot in Thomas Edison, but now I get to make fun of how she's in Townsend and I get to tell her to buzz off my facebook news feed, just a note I wanted to put in, and how her 7 other older failure sisters are insignificant (i know a bit mean but she deserves it) just wanted to add that). Well, there was this one girl Samia and she maintained a 95 average throughout all the years, and that's because the grading system was messed up in my middle school, I'd try so hard to actually understand the stuff being taught, and bad luck would always follow me, but Samia was such a cheater, she kissed up to every teacher (flashback: exactly like the stereotype of teacher's pet and kissing) and that's how she got a 95 average. Well my point is simple, the NAACP is very wrong, the test is fair, and if they win this case then the test will be insignificant and all the Specialized High Schools would be just regular schools with lots of floors, clean bathrooms, some air conditioning and pizza served in the lunchroom everyday.
ReplyDelete(by saying blacks I'm not being racist, it's just shorter than African American)
DeleteAlso I was with Niaz Ahmed and Sunny Quaderin during the HS fair and there was a similar case where this lady asked me what she does to get into Stuyvesant HS and I told her she has to take the SHSAT, then she asked me to give her a sample problem that's similar to questions in the test and I said x squared -12 equals 4 and she asked me what x is. (Also she asked me how many percentage of black people get into Stuy and I shrugged it off saying very high, there are like 10 blacks that get into our school out te thousands that take the test.) Think about it though, race doesn't mean anything when it comes to this test, their communities should be teaching them this stuff, you can't hide behind the fact that you're black. (Some kids go so far as to think they're funny by always saying "is it because I'm black"). In my neighborhood and Jackson Heights, we got a lot of brown people tutoring kids for the SHSAT and afterwards they reward those kids that get into the Specialized High Schools, they even held an award ceremony for Khan's Tutorial. In fact, my dad offered me whatever I wanted if I get into Stuy (although he did go back on his word when I requested for a Katana, Paintball Guns, Nerf Guns, Anything to do with Guns, Bow and arrows, and similar weapons). My point is, the NAACP should stop hiding behind the fact that their black, they can still read, write and try to rise to the top (hell I see black rappers always saying that they rise to the top and drop people down, now why can't you do that in the SHSAT).
(Also it was messed up how one of the ladies that I was talking to during High School Fair called me out and started dissing me about how I'm a four eyes, then told her daughter to jump in and make fun of me even though she has glasses.)
I believe the SHSAT is very fair. It tests for the same skills in every person. Alisa mentioned that different teachers hold their student to different standards. The same are true for schools. Whether it be a middle school, high school, or college, they test for different things. Some schools look at averages, some may look at extra curricular activities. Stuy and the other specialized high schools just happen to have the SHSAT. The same also applies for getting jobs. I'm not sure, but I think that there are companies that would administer a test and give the job to the people with highest score(provided they all have no criminal record). The company would not be racist if there happens to be one percent African Americans working for that company.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that the SHSAT is a clear prediction of school performance nor that it is the ideal exam for admission into specialized high schools. My parents paid for one summer of SHSAT prep at a local prepping center. Everyone worked hard, probably only because the thought of their parents' money was over their heads. From my experience, from those hours of what felt like cramming material I did not yet understand, I realized that the test merely seeks out a student's potential to learn from what knowledge their middle schools (and elementary schools) provided. The types of questions are seemingly complex, but actually simple, compilations of what is learned in class. Prep teaches how to utilize that knowledge in certain, limited situations. Prep students familiarize themselves with the types of problems and are ready for the exam. People who prep have a definite advantage over people who do not. However, if one is born clever and are able to think logically (and fast), passing without prep is possible. Therefore, I believe that all the people who got into the specialized high schools are either former, hardworking prep students or the more rare gifted and lucky students. Specialized high schools are not made up of the brightest students, hard work and devotion to school make the ultimate difference.
ReplyDeleteI admire that Vincent's courage in introducing the controversial idea of adding cutoffs for minority groups. It was likely that almost everyone would disagree with such a notion, as I do too. As students of Stuyvesant High School, students who got in, even if they believe they did not get into based on merit, would defend against giving blacks and Hispanics an advantage. The NAACP wishes to allow blacks and Hispanics more of a chance when applying for specialized high schools. However, such a change would only cause Asian and white students to work even harder when such an obstacle is blatantly and biasedly planted before them. Minority groups, might start slacking off in their studies, knowing of their advantage. We will be discriminating against their scores, for being lower, and for the test takers being of a different race. In general, no minority would want to enter a school known to have mostly the majority's members. On the other hand, I could defend Vincent's opinion by considering the alternative benefits. Lowering the standards may make the test even more intimidating for minorities since they are expected to all pass because of the advantage. The actual studying for the SHSAT, I believe will be helpful to anyone. The SHSAT takes basics learned in school and forces students to solve complex problems with their common sense (that they have developed from schooling). Even if the student fails to get into a specialized high school, perhaps by encouraging blacks and Hispanics to study with hope instead of assuming their child's definite failure would eventually allow more minorities in.
Although I disagree with how the SHSAT was designed, I also do not agree with the idea of an IQ test that many classmates (and course-mates) have mentioned. One result could be the same as the SHSAT. "IQ" tests could become standardized and prep courses following after the first of such given exams. Previous students have hinted towards the other possibility, of randomized IQ tests year after year. However, the tests would spin out of control since tests are never the same format, therefore never testing one year's group of applicants with the same fairness as another year's applicants. If this change was to be implemented, students specialized in certain topics, whichever the test-makers decide to choose for the year, would attend specialized high schools. Luck would be the limiting factor in these tests.
DeleteThe aforementioned essays-method's flaws have already been addressed. Since most options do not work out, I would rather stay with the current (and convenient) method, the SHSAT. And that is not because I passed. If NAACP wants to have equality in education for blacks and Hispanics, then why specifically attack the specialized high schools? It has been proven that academic success is not proportionally increased by attending a specialized high school. Success in life is not determined by what your high school's reputation is if you do not think it to be. I am surprised by there are not specialized high schools with a black or Hispanic majority. If there were then, Asian and white parents should adapt their parenting skills and try to make their children rise up those schools as well. If the SHSAT can't judge character by including an essay, then why not make the final judge the speed at which one can learn. The topic of adding free prep programs has already been rolled around in many tongues, but I wanted to add that it is a good idea but it may only lead to gradual change. A push by the good-willed NAACP will only add pressure to blacks and Hispanics.
I think it's interesting how the article targets the SHSAT and the specialized high schools. It's not about changing this system in particular, but the whole testing system in general.
DeleteThe way society judges whether or not a student is worthy of getting into a school or how smart a student is is how well a student can fill in a bubble sheet. That's the problem. These tests; the SHSAT, the ICEE, the SAT, the ACT, these tests aren't accurate whatsoever. These tests aren't based off the intellectual prowess of a student. These tests are based off of a certain format, and once you get used to the format you can do well on it. (For example, in the practice tests i've taken for the SHSAT i've came across problems that ask for the same solution, just with different numbers substituted in.)
The way students should be tested should be by interviews; seeing how students can respond quickly on their feet and interact with strangers are important skills to have in the "real world." Some students can be very skilled academically but have no social skills, no personality, no life. It's important to be well rounded and to be more than the scores of a report card.
Of course this way of testing student's abilities is flawed as well, but it's better than a scantron. Because like Madina said, what if you had a bad day or you messed up filling the scantron in? Does that mean you didn't have the intellectual means to get in?
This comment was more general a bit off topic. After answering the first time, i started to wonder. Is there a way to measure how smart a student is accurately? Also there will always be racism in the world and really in almost any scenario people can always accuse other of being racist. Why can't people accept the fact that the world is unfair, some people will get in and some people won't. (in, in this scenario is the school the student wants to get into)
I think that the point of the SHSAT is not to test one's intellectual level, but instead how hard they work. The reason the test is "biased" against Blacks and Hispanics is because they cannot get the amount of preparation for the test that many other ethnic backgrounds receive. Moreover, in those minority communities education is not as highly valued or thought of (usually) as in, for example, an Asian family. Also, many of the Eastern Asian students at Stuyvesant are second or even first generation, and their parents are used to the idea that hard work will lead directly to success. Black and Hispanic familes, on the other hand, have lived in the west for many generations, and because of that fact they believe that they do not have the money to go to college or any education after high school, so there is no point in going to a good high school. As the writer in the article said, "It's a socioeconomic problem."
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DeleteI agree with the person before me who said that the test was fair, not equal. A large part of the SHSAT is being prepared for the format and the other part is having knowledge of the concepts, such as what is a main idea or how to solve quadratic equations. All this can be accomplished through preparation, either through a test-prep course or by studying SHSAT books independently. A major reason minorities such as blacks and hispanics do not get higher scores is because they lack these resources, such as money to take a test-prep course, or do not live near a library where they can access SHSAT practice books. Therefore, the reason for this "bias" is not the test itself, so I don't think lowering the cutoff score is the solution. Although the results of the test aren't strongly related to academic success, welcoming lower scores will mean that these students will be less prepared.
ReplyDeleteI think that the SHSAT test is fair. A lot of what happens in getting accepted depends on how well you did on the test. And how well we do on the test depends on how hard we work in preparing for the test. It is true that blacks and hispanics don't get higher scores and that they may lack the opportunity of test prep. However, I think that most of the material covered on the test is covered in school. If the SHSAT cutoff score was lowered, there would be more chance of someone who has worked very hard to prepare for the test to not get in and someone who hasn't worked as hard to get in, due to the lottery used in selection. This would be unfair for the people who worked endlessly to earn their way into the specialized high schools. In addition, lowering the cutoff would mean that less-ready people would be accepted into the harder schools like Stuyvesant, and they may not be up to the challenge that these schools offer. The unfairness isn't associated with the test, but it may be the difference in the amount of opportunities for preparation instead.
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