As per our classroom discussions about the gender roles presented in The Taming of the Shrew, we began to wonder if such gender roles continue to exist in modern day America.
Are women becoming less submissive in the workplace? Are men becoming more accepting of gender equality? Are woman becoming the dominant gender? Please listen to the first four speakers of this intelligence squared debate and comment on the argument being presented, your individual thoughts, and any questions you might have about this particular discussion.
You can find the debate here.
I encourage you all to participate in the discussion while commenting on what others are saying. It is important that you engage one another in meaningful debate.
And remember, when we debate, we should not trying to convince someone that we are right and they are wrong. We should only try to understand those who we debate with.
Women are rising above the ideas presented through sexism and are becoming more and more successful. Men seem to accept the idea that women are now making as much money and have as much successful jobs as they do. Although women are becoming more dominant in today's society, they are not yet the dominant gender because they still have to rise pass the ideals of society (such as those of a dainty, obedient wife and an industrious (though not as industrious as men) worker).
ReplyDeleteOn the side that believes that men are not finished, they present the evidence that men are not and cannot be finished because of the fact that biologically, women and men need one another. But, on the side that believes that men are finished, they believe that in a political and economic view, at the very least, women are starting to become more dominant. Research has shown that bills passed by women will generally stay in law longer and will be more likely deemed important than those of men. It has also shown that women are less likely to lose a person's money in the stock market than men. A survey (or some type of research) has shown that couples who are about to have a child generally prefer to want girls rather than boys.
I agree with both sides. Economically, women are becoming more dominant, achieving higher [management] jobs than men and becoming more successful. But, men cannot be entirely finished since both sexes need one another.
- Tiffany | Period 4 |E1FC
Women are slowly changing the way society perceives them. They are more likely to go to college, they can get paid more than men, and they have some type of drive to succeed. Even though woman are fighting sexism, I don’t think they are the dominating gender. They are catching up to men. Men are always going to be inventors and leaders. They’re always going to do tough jobs because of their levels of confidence. Women are better at handling money because they take less risks. Bothe women and men’s emotions influence the ways they carry out their jobs. Because each is more likely to have certain types of emotions, this directly influences how they are at work. Women are succeeding more these days and working harder. They are catching up to men, but men are still holding on.
ReplyDeleteMen are not finished. I do admit that women are gaining higher positions in society. However, men are still at the top of the food chain while women are still sprouting their heads out of the ground. Many names of jobs that we have today include the word man in them, indicating that males are expected to dominate, if not be the only sex, in that field. These include but are not limited to: businessman, fireman, policeman, and manager. Many expressions and phrases also express male dominance. The term "housewife" is used commonly but how many times do you hear the term "house husband"? While there are more woman in the schools and in the workforce, there are more men in power and men hold a greater percentage of the world's wealth and property. True, men and women are beginning to equalize but men are by no means finished.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree that men are finished. Women are certainly catching up to men in terms of education and the workplace. However, they are not replacing men, many of whom fill high positions in corporations and politics and work as policemen and firefighters. Women may make up a larger percentage of the workforce than men but men earn a larger portion of the total income. Although women seem to embody many of the traits needed for a politician, people seem to unanimously agree that males are better fit for a position in government. This is attributed to sexism, which does not seem to be fading since it is still apparent after centuries of civilization. Also, women may be advancing in fields such as psychology and biology but men are dominant in areas such as math, technology and engineering. These fields are not going to go away in the near future. Men own most of the world's property and rule most of its nations. There are also considerably less self-made billionaire women than men. Even though females may perform better in schoolwork, the self-made billionaires of today often did not completely finish their education. These facts and statistics prove that women may be making some progress but men have had centuries of a head start and, as of today, men are not yet finished.
ReplyDeleteErik Liu says I do believe that women are steadily rising in power and are changing the way men perceive them but it is going too far to say that men are finished. Although it's true that women CURRENTLY have more jobs then men and are gaining significant grounds in terms of power, we must remember that those are due to outside factors. The fact that women have more jobs then men can be countered by 2 reasons. First off, the construction industry which hire many men are currently undergoing an economic breakdown which leads to the loss of many jobs. The second reason, is that whenever men are outnumbering women in a certain field of work, women leaders always call this "sexism" and lobby for more women to be hired. Due to this some women are chosen to be hired over men. An example of this bogus "sexism" issue is clearly shown in the case of Aviator high school. Once men are sick and tired of this complaint, they will fight back and not always succumb to the needs of hiring women. Although women and men are equal intellectually as shown by standardized test scores, men have a undisputed physical advantage over women. Men are needed as cops, soldiers, firemen,and etc. These are jobs that very few women are willing or can take. Due to these factors, it's irrational to think that men are finished.
ReplyDeleteMen are certainly not finished. Women are catching up to men because of their intelligence, creativity, and ambition. However, men will always be here doing the physically demanding jobs such as soldiers, construction workers, miners, and police officers. Most women are unable to handle such rigorous work, showing the importance of men. On the flip side, women are also just as significant because there are some jobs that women are more adapted to, such as elementary school teachers, babysitters, treasurers, vets, and designers. It is possible that women will become the dominant work force one day but men will never be "finished".
ReplyDelete@Ali: I agree with your stance but I want to point out that those words were created before women obtained larger roles in society. It shows that men were the dominant work force when the words were coined, but they don't necessarily apply to our generation. Also, some of the jobs you mentioned like businessman and policeman are interchangeable.
Men are not finished even though women intelligence is rising slowly and are catching up to men. Yes, more women go to college than men, every 2 men who go to college, 3 women would and yes women are more likely to get paid in job but that doesn't mean men are finish. Men hold jobs like construction workers, engineering, and military forces that most women don't have the power and courage to do. This shows how women are unable to handle these jobs and than men are important. It's true that men are on top of the food chain and are slowly decreasing, but the fact is, men are still on top and that's not going to change. Women hold jobs like school teachers, treasurers, vets, designers, and physiologist that are important but, men hold dangerous jobs. Women might hold numbers in jobs like vets and school teachers, but men hold numbers larger in jobs like construction. If men are finish, does it mean jobs like police officers, military forces, construction workers, and engineering are over? No, men are not finish; there will always be jobs like that. Recent studies by the commerce department, women numbers in computer science and mathematics gone down during the last 10 years. Men will always depend on women and women would always depend on men. I don’t think that men are finish and will never be finish. Women might rise slowly, and might even get ahead of men, but men will never be finish.
ReplyDeleteTime for Ferencz to chime in here.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, let's be careful of our words and our ideas. I'd like to challenge a few concepts.
First, ahem, not all school teachers are women as many of us suggest.
We seem to present the idea that certain genders are "better" or "better suited" for particular occupations. But the truth is, there have been particular gender roles associated with particular jobs. The concept of a female lawyer or female doctor was an alien idea over 50 years ago, so why do we still believe that women cannot work construction, on police forces, or in the military?
I must also admit that if one were to consider the education needed for these particular jobs, that touting such "ability" is hardly an effective argument. Isn't it a positive force of change that women do not need to work low-education jobs that involve manual labor?
I think it's also important that we clarify our rhetoric. Many of us are concluding that men will never be "finished." Rather than utilize the same vocabulary as the debate, why not attempt to explain what this phrase potentially means?
I know I'm a bit late, but I think that men are not finished ad never will be finished. Perhaps women now have more jobs, but there are more women in America, and in most of the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio). I also believe that no matter how many more women than men are working, men will never be "finished" because socially, they are treated differently. Even now men with the same jobs as women receive more money for the job. Also, when dating, the man is still expected to hold the door open for a woman and pay for the dinner and movie. These things are not changing, and probably never will change. Another point is that men and women think differently. As I said in class, men play chess more than women. Aside from the historical reasons, I believe that men are better at planning strategies theoretically, women are better at managing real-life situations. There will always be these differences between men and women.
ReplyDeleteMen aren't finished, or at least not any time soon. As others have said, there are way too many social norms to overcome. Boys are raised to treat women specially, paying for dinners and opening doors. Another challenge is religion. There are lines in the Bible and other religious texts that suggest that women should submit to or obey their husbands. Other lines suggest that women have a weaker character - for example, it was Eve that sinned first, not Adam. Some people will have to reject or disregard these religious texts that they are so faithful to. It could take quite a long time (if ever) for society to change. It's also hard to achieve because men, in general, are able to physically overpower women - hence, we have domestic violence. Perhaps in terms of education or careers, men and women can become equals, but it seems nearly possible to achieve socially. We're not even able to achieve real equality between two people of the same gender and different race, so equality between the two genders seems rather far off.
ReplyDeleteFor men to be finished, they would have to lose their dominance in society not only in ways numerically measurable, but also in the eyes of society. By this definition, men are finished. The statistics that support the idea that women are catching up to men in fields such as marketing, management, science, technology and so forth are all over this forum. Although, the way women are viewed in society in also very important. How women are being viewed is starting to change in our society. In the debate, Hannah Rosin stated how the media is changing how women are being viewed. She stated that many T.V. shows now show women as independent people who can take care of themselves while men are seen as the lesser gender. Even if people would generally prefer a male police officer over a female for protection, just as an example, there is evidence that these types of ideas and pre-conceived notions are changing today. As far as all the statistical data goes, you can look at it three ways. Data clearly shows women are catching up to men. Now, you can say that it's a steady trend where eventually women are going to dominate men, you can say there'll be a balance, or can say progress will flatline and men will continue to dominate. For progress to completely stop is crazy. Either, women eventually dominate or we reach a balance. Either way men still lose dominance and that is why men are finished.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think we'll eventually come to a balance. As Zabari Safari said, both men and women have inate qualities that help them succeed.
...I'm like the only one supporting men are finished....ForeverAlone...
No, I don't think men will ever be completely dominated by women. Women are catching up to men sure, but that's because of acceptance of the opposite gender. Society is re-balancing itself. Women catch up because of their own attributes. Women are fighting sexism. A century ago, the idea of women being doctors or joining the police was foreign. Despite their ambition though, men are more physically able to take on the rigors of most jobs, that's the reason why we still think the idea of women working construction or joining the police is alien. Stereotypes can never be completely abolished. Due to physical rigors of some jobs, women won't be able to completely dominate. Society has changed it's perspective on women over the last century.
ReplyDeleteMen are not finished. They were never on top. The same will apply for women. There is no dominant gender. Both genders have been looked up to as a model for many different things, mainly jobs and duties. For males, it has mainly been things such as bringing income to the home, defending property and country, having superior strength and holding many jobs such as, in the United States' sense, President, soldiers, firefighters, police officers, politicians and business people. For women, they have often been looked up to as caretakers, mothers, models and have traits such as kindness, compassion, understanding as well as much more. While men have dominated the workforce, women have dominated the home. Think of it this way, if one were a child and one were bullied, one would go to the father for protection, and then go to the mother for healing and guidance. As Christina Hoff Summers argued, men and women's fates are interlocked. There is an interdependency and both depend on each other. One may argue that the sudden surge of women into the workforce and men into the home shows a decline in masculine dominance, as shown in recent television shows such as "Up All Night" and "Last Man Standing". I say, NOT AT ALL!! Women and men are merely discovering what more they can do and how advantageous their strengths actually are. Julia Child was an incredibly successful female chef in a time where men were considered chefs. She paved the way for women to say, "I've been cooking for a while at home, I can make this a career." and for men to say, "My wife is working at a restaurant now. I think I can now stay at home and nurse our children and cook my lasagna here instead!". Women are not dethroning men, or even asking for the abdication of such a throne. Women are entering fields they didn't before because they were remaining in the home. I ask you, if you say men are dominant in the workforce, which makes them the dominant gender, where do they go after work? HOME, WHERE WOMEN WOULD "DOMINATE". Then, you would have two dominant (and therefore equal) genders, for you cannot have a home without a job, and you WILL struggle to find a job without a home. There is no dominant gender and there will be no dominant gender. Women are expanding into new fields (workforce) and so are men (home). No field is superior to the other and no gender is superior to the other.
ReplyDeleteMen are not finished. As they opposition stated, Men are more dominant in other subjects such as technology and engineering and more. They also stated Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates who are great examples of men who without graduating college became very successful. There aren't any examples of this in today's society which include women. Men will never be finished because of the other jobs which many women aren't capable of. This includes hard labor jobs such as construction, being a soldier, garbage man and more jobs. There are a few female soldiers but it is a male dominated job. Also it is not that men are finished but that women are rising. Charlie said above that women are expanding into new fields. This is very true and women are getting more college degrees then men, but it doesn't mean that men are finished. Also the fact that schools are generally more feminine and restrict the rambunctious behavior of males can affect the reason women might be getting more degrees. Many of us don't want to be in a place where your restricted from doing things. This can lead to lack of concentration which can lead to a lot more problems such as lower grades which can lead to depression or more. It is a chain of reactions basically. Even if women get more degrees, men will probably always be dominant in other places. For example the sports industry. WNBA ticket sales are horrible. Many of the athletes have to get second jobs just to survive. So Men are not finished and never will be.
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